What finish should I use?

[Michael Mayo]

I got an issue of Wood Magazine a while ago because it had a coupon for the HF DC in it for $149 and while I was reading the rest of the magazine I came across a project that I really liked. So I decided to make this box. It is a Frank Lloyd Wright inspired box made with Curly Maple, Cherry and Walnut. It has taken me a little while to finish this little project but it has been great learning for a newbie woodworker. I had the Maple, Cherry and Walnut that I got for free from various places so all the wasted cuts I made etc. didn't hurt too much. This thing is going to be displayed in the home for my wife so i wanted it to be perfect hence the many mistakes and re-do's. But as I said it was all good as it taught me a lot about working with wood and my tools as well. It is almost finished and I wanted to know what the best finish would be to really make it pop when it is complete. I would like something really shiny/glossy as I think that would probably bring out the beauty of the woods I used. But being a newbie with no experience with finishing I was hoping the brain trust here would be willing to give me some direction. I would rather not get too crazy with the process but if it will make it look really awesome then I am in. Thanks for your advice and i will post some pics once it is finished.

[Rich Engelhardt]

IIRC, that's the one with the square legs on the corners right?
Those legs will make it nearly impossible to rub out any type of finish to increase the gloss, so, you'll need to apply the highest gloss finish that you can buy.
It's also going to make sanding between coats nearly impossible, so, you need something that doesn't require that.

First - "pop" the grain by wiping on some boiled linseed oil, then remove any excess after letting it sit 10 to 15 min.
Allow that to dry 24 hours.

Wipe the entire thing down real well with a tack rag to remove any dust nibs.
Get the tack rag that's made for use with solvent based materials - not the one made for waterborne materials.

Apply a mist coat of Zinsser Seal Coat using a spray can.
Rub the whole thing down with a brown paper bag, then wipe with a tack cloth.
Apply another mist coat of Seal Coat.
Rub down w/brown paper bag - followed by wipe w/the tack rag.
Repeat the mist coats of Seal Coat/bag until the gloss is even and to your liking.
If it needs another coat, wipe with the tack rag. If not, then stop there and don't use the tack rag.

My best "guess" as to the number of mist coats it will take is 6.
That's just a rough estimate based on how I do it/what I'd expect.

Do not be alarmed if it take more - even if it's twice that number.

It's important that you apply a very light coat each time. Don't put it on too heavy. You should just see a trace of the Seal Coat going on.

A final waxing with Johnson's Paste Wax is optional.
I like to give things like that a coat of wax. IMHO, it adds a bit of "touch me" factor.

Spray Deft could be substituted for the Seal Coat - but - the Seal Coat is more forgiving.
If you get any runs or sags or have to remove any of the Seal Coat for any reason, it wipes off with a rag saturated with Denatured Alcohol.
I would also not recommend using a tack rag between coats of Deft.
Deft is a lacquer and doesn't always "play well" with the oils in tack rags.

Deft will also require fewer coats.
W/Deft, if it's not where you want it to be after 6 coats, then something isn't right.

With either, to prevent the spray can from "spitting" ( throwing small bits of dried or semi dried material) and/or clogging, invert the can upside down after use and trigger it until it shoots just air & no or very little material.
W/Seal Coat, wipe the nozzle off with a rag dampened with Denatured Alcohol. W/Deft, use a rag dampened with Lacquer thinner.
(This also works for spray cans of enamel BTW. It keeps the nozzle from clogging up so you don't have to toss a half can of spray paint that's been sitting on the shelf for a couple of weeks/months)

W/either, if you plan on doing the inside of the box also - do that first.

Your other options for finishing are pretty limited due to the gloss requirement and/or the physical layout of that box.
Using a brush is pretty much out due to the small space between the corner posts.
A wipe on might work, but, wiping a high gloss finish can be tricky on such an irregular object.
That and the fact that with a wipe on type material, you can't achieve as high a gloss as you can with Deft (a laccquer) or Seal Coat (dewaxed shellac).

Spray makes the most sense in this case & even if you were all set up with a spray gun or HVLP setup, due to the small size of the box, a rattle can makes more sense than getting a gun dirty and having to clean it.

HTH - and maybe someone esle can chime in with more info/a personal method they'd use.

[John TenEyck]

First, I hate BLO. OK, that's out of the way. If you want to apply an oil first I would use Seal-A-Cell; about the same look and it really will dry. Whether or not I used the oil first, I would spray it with rattle can shellac or lacquer, or I would use a wipe on varnish. I've had no trouble getting a very high gloss with Arm-R-Seal, applied with a paper towel. Couldn't be much easier, and a lot less fumes than from a rattle can.

This is Arm-R-Seal Semi-gloss on curly maple.

IMG_5726.JPG

John

[Michael Mayo]

Thank you Rich and John I very much appreciate the advice. Rich your solution sounds very time consuming and labor intensive. I am not averse to doing it if I will get the results I am after but man that is going to take some serious effort. Why do you wipe with a paper bag? And is the BLO an absolute necessity? I am not much into the BLO idea either to be honest but again if it is going to give the results then I will do it. The box is quite small and intricate as far as wiping goes but not out of the question I wouldn't think? Here is a picture of the box from the magazine article.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Michael,
It sounds a whole lot worse than it actually is to do.
The idea behind using the oil first is to "pop" (enhance) the grain.

W/out "popping" the grain first, the finish will have less depth to it.

However - the effect is pretty subtle and it's not something that screams out.
Quite a few people (myself included at times) skip over that step.

The main problem with wiping is the change of direction involved - going from back and forth on the sides to up and down on the legs.
Any finish that builds a gloss film is going to show marks where that change takes place as swirl marks.
Seal A Cell is a film building finish BTW. Boiled linseed oil has no solids so it builds no finish.

"Bagging" shellac - rubbing it down with a brown paper bag - produces a slick glass like silky smooth finish on shellac.
To be perfectly honest - I have no idea how it actually does that - I just know that it works like a charm.
If I had to give an answer, I'd say the paper is just slightly abrasive enough to polish the shellac.

You just have to trust me here - trying to wipe a finish on and getting it even is a whole lot more work than just hitting it with a spray can.
Save the trip into a wipe on finish for a project that's not as complex as that box.

[Bill Neely]

No comment on the finish but would like to compliment you on your work, beautiful.

I see the FLW book in the picture - the box is remeniscent of his style. My father in law was one of his apprentices.

[Michael Mayo]

No comment on the finish but would like to compliment you on your work, beautiful.

I see the FLW book in the picture - the box is remeniscent of his style. My father in law was one of his apprentices.

Bill,
I only wish that were my actual box that I had constructed. Although I have tajen great pains to get mine to look very much the same as the example photo I have posted I am not sure it will live up to that same quality and perfection.

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I would get a spray can of shellac or even Deft Finish from either Big Box, and spray that on. The quality of the finish will come mainly from your sanding prep. To that end, I would sand it to 320 or 400 grit, wet it with MS and look for missed spots. It helps to feel for rough spots with your fingers also. When you're satisfied with the look and feel, vacuum or wipe out all the dust.

I do agree that an initial coat of oil does make the piece come alive. I just completed a media console where I oiled some components and not others before topcoating. I notice the difference. You don't need much; just a wipe down - not a soaking.

I agree that wiping the topcoat here will be tricky. IMHO, small items like this are best sprayed.

[Michael Mayo]

Michael,
It sounds a whole lot worse than it actually is to do.
The idea behind using the oil first is to "pop" (enhance) the grain.

W/out "popping" the grain first, the finish will have less depth to it.

However - the effect is pretty subtle and it's not something that screams out.
Quite a few people (myself included at times) skip over that step.

The main problem with wiping is the change of direction involved - going from back and forth on the sides to up and down on the legs.
Any finish that builds a gloss film is going to show marks where that change takes place as swirl marks.
Seal A Cell is a film building finish BTW. Boiled linseed oil has no solids so it builds no finish.

"Bagging" shellac - rubbing it down with a brown paper bag - produces a slick glass like silky smooth finish on shellac.
To be perfectly honest - I have no idea how it actually does that - I just know that it works like a charm.
If I had to give an answer, I'd say the paper is just slightly abrasive enough to polish the shellac.

You just have to trust me here - trying to wipe a finish on and getting it even is a whole lot more work than just hitting it with a spray can.
Save the trip into a wipe on finish for a project that's not as complex as that box.

Rich,
I my Googling of the products you mention I do not see any Zinsser Spray on Seal Coat only comes in a quart/gallon can? Can I just use the Zinsser Clear Bullseye Spray Shellac? It says it is a traditional finish and sealer? The reason I am asking is because I don't have anything close by me that carries this type of stuff except for the Borgs so I am hoping something purchased there will suffice.

[Prashun Patel]

Zinsser Spray shellac is dewaxed, as is Sealcoat, which is what they call their brushing product. The difference between the two (besides slight color difference) is the spray product is likely thinner than the sealcoat.

Remember when spraying this or Deft, it goes on very thin. Resist the desire to make more than 2-3 quick passes over the whole thing at once. You will give yourself sags. The good news is that it dries fairly quickly, so you can do 3-4 of these sessions within an hour. After that, let the whole thing dry for several hours before repeating or you risk the whole thing not drying properly.

Also, know that shellac is not intended to be built up. It's intended to be thin and even.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Michael,
My bad - the Bullseye Spray shellac is fine. Inside the can, it's actually Zinsser's Seal Coat - but - for reason's known only to Zinsser they don't label it that way.
I always forget that it's labled as shellac. If you read the label it should say it contains 100% dewaxed shellac.
Lowes and Home Depot should both carry it.

[John TenEyck]

Michael,
It sounds a whole lot worse than it actually is to do.
The idea behind using the oil first is to "pop" (enhance) the grain.

W/out "popping" the grain first, the finish will have less depth to it.

However - the effect is pretty subtle and it's not something that screams out.
Quite a few people (myself included at times) skip over that step.

The main problem with wiping is the change of direction involved - going from back and forth on the sides to up and down on the legs.
Any finish that builds a gloss film is going to show marks where that change takes place as swirl marks.
Seal A Cell is a film building finish BTW. Boiled linseed oil has no solids so it builds no finish.

"Bagging" shellac - rubbing it down with a brown paper bag - produces a slick glass like silky smooth finish on shellac.
To be perfectly honest - I have no idea how it actually does that - I just know that it works like a charm.
If I had to give an answer, I'd say the paper is just slightly abrasive enough to polish the shellac.

You just have to trust me here - trying to wipe a finish on and getting it even is a whole lot more work than just hitting it with a spray can.
Save the trip into a wipe on finish for a project that's not as complex as that box.

FYI, as Seal-A-Cell is a penetrating oil/varnish mixture and used as intended it does not form much of a film; that's what Arm-R-Seal is for. They are often used in tandem.

Brown bags are coated with colloidal silica so they won't slip. Colloidal silica is a very, very fine abrasive and that's why it smooths a finish when rubbed over it.

Looking at the box, it appears there are several hidden/undercut areas. I don't know how you would get a spray finish into them, at least not uniformly. I'd go with a wipe on finish and I'd have no qualms about being able to apply it uniformly.

John

[Michael Mayo]

Well as is usually the case here at the Creek I am getting a serious education in a short amount of time which is truly appreciated and very much in need. Rich thanks I was thinking that might be the case. Now when I spray the Zinsser shellac sparingly onto the box do I then immediately wipe with the brown shopping bag or do I wait some first? I will stop by the Borg on the way home and pick some Zinsser spray shellac and BLO up to experiment with on some scrap. John the top on the box does lift off FYI but the box is quite small and intricate with many square and tight profiles that is why the spray finish is the preferred advice so far.

[John TenEyck]

Think of the brown bag as ultra fine sandpaper. Sooooo, you have to wait for the finish to be completely cured before rubbing it with the bag - that means waiting at least a day or two if using shellac, at least a week, preferably more, for a varnish.

John

[Rich Engelhardt]

Didn't know that about the colloidal silica. Thanks! Makes sense.
I've never experienced any problems using it between coats of shellac w/an hour or half hour (depending on the humidity) dry.

Just because I've never had a problem though, doesn't make it the right thing to do.

My main concern with anything that builds any type of film with an object like that box is the number of changes of direction - along with the OP's (admitted) inexperience.
That's not the ideal project to try out a new technique - especailly with a high gloss finish.

If something does go wrong & he ends up with swirls where he changes direction, he's faces the miserable if not nearly impossible task of stripping the film off.
Change the gloss finish to a more forgiving semi gloss or satin & it's a little different story.