Model dovetail saw handle

[Jeff Wittrock]

I've been wanting to make a dovetail saw for some time and have been playing around lately. This is a practice handle saw handle and a first attempt at making a closed handle.
Since it was just for practice I made it from a scrap of unknown hardwood and left undone since I'm still playing with it. This gives me a handle to try out for a while (once I actually put teeth on the thing) to see how I like the hang angle and size.

It's a bit rough, but just wanted some impressions on the shape. I started with a template for a groves backsaw and scaled back some of the dimensions (not the handle itself) to lighten it up a bit. I'm wondering if the handle looks a bit heavy for a dovetail saw, but have to admit I love the appearance of closed handles.

A few things I already know will probably change
1. The vertical part of the lambs tongue is probably to thin in the center (it cracked).
2. Need to look at some more good examples of lambs tongue since I'm not sure I really have the idea.
3. The inletting of the back to the handle needs more careful attention. I didn't have a small enough chisel for this and the fit isn't so good.
4. Not sure I like the little quarter radius I did at the point that the end of the back meets the handle.
5. Don't really like where I clipped the heel at 45 deg. Seemed like the thing to do at the time, but I think I overdid it.

Much of this is subjective of course, and the real test is how it will work for me, but with little experience making saw handles, I'm interest in constructive critique.
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Thanks,
Jeff

[george wilson]

It looks like a very nice job! I would lengthen the angular area at the top end of the saw back,if possible,in order to make that long swoop on the top of the handle shorter. Good sculpting work.

You can go to the FAQ section here and see a similar Groves handle I did if you wish. I think Groves handles are very beautiful,especially the closed ones.

[Ron Bontz]

+1 what George said.

[Jim Koepke]

It looks pretty good.

The great part about making a prototype is you can see what you like and what you don't like. I did this with my first saw handle to make sure of the hang angle and the fit. It felt tight in places, so my second handle was opened up where my prototype felt "pinchy." The result was a saw that is a joy for me to use.

One of these days my plan is to make a few more back saws. Maybe in the next year or two all my apple will be dry enough to make some more handles.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Since you ask for critique, I won't hold back. Overall you did an admirable job.

I would make A longer. And I don't like that large curve at B. And I think the handle is way too big for such a small saw.

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[Chris Griggs]

I like it a lot. I agree with Kees assessment of lengthening A and shortening B, or maybe even just adjusting B a bit - that's just my personal taste though, its not a requirement. Otherwise the shape is very pleasing and the sculpting is fantastic. I actually really like the somewhat oversized closed handle look in dovetail saws. Some of the old disstons had those proportions and for whatever reason I like them.

[george wilson]

Kee's illustration was exactly what I was trying to describe. The rest of the handle looks great. Yes,it could use a larger,deeper blade.

[Brian Thornock]

I think it looks really good. I have a half-done backsaw handle waiting for me to finish up. My one suggestion (and it may prove totally invalid) is perhaps to open up the hang angle. It looks a little vertical too me, but then again, I've only got one dovetail saw at the moment, so nothing to really compare to. And I don't mean drastically changed, just slightly.

[peter gagliardi]

While I agree with the above generally on the proportion, I do think there is nothing wrong with that handle size. I am assuming it fits your hand, not generic. I don't have overly large hands, but I do find a lot of the smaller purpose type saws to have inadequate sizing for me. Nice job!

[Adam Cruea]

Looks good!

I don't think the handle is over sized for the saw at all, but I have discovered my hands don't fit well into regular-handles. I'm more about function than form.

[george wilson]

You must allow for filing down the blade,though. It won't be too many resharps before the teeth are down to the handle.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Thanks all for the feedback. Again, not having much experience, it is invaluable to be able to have feedback from people with experience and good taste (neither of which do I have in abundance of at this time).

Thanks for the diagram Kees, this makes it crystal clear what is being described by You and George. It's kind of funny that the original Groves backsaw template that I was using would have had "A" a bit shorter, and shallowing out this curve was my attempt to lighten the handle up a bit.

It really is fascinating to me that I can take an example from long ago that initially looks like it has arbitrary decisions made on its shape and form, and by playing with it even in very small, subtle ways, I can make it look all wrong . I don't think there are necessarily absolutes that I have to stick with, but there is something very beautiful in some of these saw handles from the past, and I hope to try and emulate that some day. I agree with you on the Groves handles George. Of all the different closed handle designs I looked at so far, I find the Groves very beautiful and I find the version you made shown in the FAQ to be especially beautiful.

I was worried about the handle kind of "wagging" the plate, and I agree with the handle looking a bit big. Making another saw plate from some 1095 blue spring steel is actually one of the easier parts of this project so I think I will make a deeper plate. Working on the handle takes time, but is the part that I find a lot of fun.

The hard part was making the slit steel back.

A can of wd-40, a hack saw with the set ground off and a piece of 1/4" steel.
Ah... good times... but is there an easier way?
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[george wilson]

Well!!! You had a bit of work,there!! I didn't know you made the blade. For sure I didn't know you hand hacksawed the slit back. That was quite a job,especially since you were limited to very short strokes.

I did not consider your handle "all wrong" at all. It is by far one of the best first attempts I've seen here. You have a good eye,and with just a bit of training,you'll be making beautiful handles. If you could reduce the size of the cheek,the handle would fit your plate better,leaving more room for re sharpening. Actually,the blade really calls for an open style handle so you can make the cheek smaller.

I think one of the saw makers here uses a slitting saw mounted on his drill press. You could clamp a wooden fence to regulate the depth of cut. BUT,I swear,it seems very dangerous,and a great way for you to have a kick back and slit your finger tips. I'd ONLY attempt that with proper push sticks,AND keep your face away from the saw back and wear protective face shields. Personally,I prefer folded backs,but that equipment was left in the toolmaker's shop where I worked for many years.

A folded back could be made with a smooth jawed machinist's vise. I always have to grind the chops smooth. You could anneal a strip of mild steel about 1 1/2" wide and 1/8" or less thick. Scribe a line down the center. Put one end into the vise on the line and bend it some using a hammer and a wood block or block of steel. Shift the saw back to bend the next part,etc. Do this bending by degrees till you have a 90º angle in it. Keep annealing as needed. Once you have a 90 deg. angle,clamp the saw back
in the vise with the edges exactly opposite each other. The V shape should be vertical,like the letter V in the vise jaws,or the back may close more on 1 side. Try closing the vise jaws to bring the bend down smaller and smaller,shifting the back constantly to avoid marring it with the corners of the jaws. With annealing and care,you could eventually close the back till the slit is slightly thinner than your saw blade. Then,file up the saw back polish,etc. Get rid of marks and tap the blade into it. A few drops of Loctite and it will be well held. This sounds drawn out,but I think it is easier than sawing that slit.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Not much to add to what other's have said about the saw, but damn, I don't think I could have pulled off slotting the back that way! Nice job!

[Jeff Wittrock]

Well!!! You had a bit of work,there!! I didn't know you made the blade. For sure I didn't know you hand hacksawed the slit back. That was quite a job,especially since you were limited to very short strokes.

I did not consider your handle "all wrong" at all. It is by far one of the best first attempts I've seen here. You have a good eye,and with just a bit of training,you'll be making beautiful handles. If you could reduce the size of the cheek,the handle would fit your plate better,leaving more room for re sharpening. Actually,the blade really calls for an open style handle so you can make the cheek smaller.

I think one of the saw makers here uses a slitting saw mounted on his drill press. You could clamp a wooden fence to regulate the depth of cut. BUT,I swear,it seems very dangerous,and a great way for you to have a kick back and slit your finger tips. I'd ONLY attempt that with proper push sticks,AND keep your face away from the saw back and wear protective face shields. Personally,I prefer folded backs,but that equipment was left in the toolmaker's shop where I worked for many years.

A folded back could be made with a smooth jawed machinist's vise. I always have to grind the chops smooth. You could anneal a strip of mild steel about 1 1/2" wide and 1/8" or less thick. Scribe a line down the center. Put one end into the vise on the line and bend it some using a hammer and a wood block or block of steel. Shift the saw back to bend the next part,etc. Do this bending by degrees till you have a 90º angle in it. Keep annealing as needed. Once you have a 90 deg. angle,clamp the saw back
in the vise with the edges exactly opposite each other. The V shape should be vertical,like the letter V in the vise jaws,or the back may close more on 1 side. Try closing the vise jaws to bring the bend down smaller and smaller,shifting the back constantly to avoid marring it with the corners of the jaws. With annealing and care,you could eventually close the back till the slit is slightly thinner than your saw blade. Then,file up the saw back polish,etc. Get rid of marks and tap the blade into it. A few drops of Loctite and it will be well held. This sounds drawn out,but I think it is easier than sawing that slit.

Thanks George. I was exaggerating a bit about the handle being "all wrong". But it is interesting to me how small adjustments can make such an impact on appearance and function and as I modify things I start to see why things were the way they were to start with. That's not limited to saw handles either. My paying job is as an embedded software engineer. When picking up a project that someone else has worked on, my first inclination is to find ways to throw out what was done before so I can do it my way only to find it was best left as is.

I thought about trying to use a slitting saw on a drill press, but was afraid of the outcome (to me, not the saw back). I'm afraid the runout on my drill press is bad enough that a 0.020 slitter would end up cutting a 1/16" slot. I even thought about dremel cut-off wheels, but not sure how they would hold up as the slot became deeper. I think you are right about folding a back being easier. With 1/8" thickness there is probably enough material to still square off the top and have a nice 45deg. chamfer on the corners. Thanks for the detailed explanation of folding the back.

Thanks again for all the feedback. I'm learning as I go.