pig sticker...

[Brian Ashton]

Reading some of the responses I would sat it's all relative. You could use a paring chisel, as was mentioned, to chop a mortice with out any trouble... But if you want to chop many and do it all efficiently you will need a pig sticker. In the days that pig stickers were popular the craftsmen were required to chop mortices at an amazingly fast rate and I suspect they were hitting and cranking on those mortise chisels much harder than he was in the video. Now, we chop mortices because we want to experience the neander way and time and the ultimate robustness of the chisel isn't nearly as much a factor anymore.

[Jim Palmer]

Reading some of the responses I would sat it's all relative. You could use a paring chisel, as was mentioned, to chop a mortice with out any trouble... But if you want to chop many and do it all efficiently you will need a pig sticker. In the days that pig stickers were popular the craftsmen were required to chop mortices at an amazingly fast rate and I suspect they were hitting and cranking on those mortise chisels much harder than he was in the video. Now, we chop mortices because we want to experience the neander way and time and the ultimate robustness of the chisel isn't nearly as much a factor anymore.

Yes, it is all relative - although I'd never hint that a paring chisel could be used - and mortise can be cranked out at a pace, but the heft behind each blow needn't necessarily increase. This is because your mallet should be doing most of the work as it completes each controlled swing and the only time you'll tend to see heavier than normal blows used is where a mallet is undersized and unsuited to the task. You tend to read the timber when making the first mortise and adjust technique - such as angle of attack, depth of cut, etc. - to suit tools and materials being worked.

Craftsmen are still required to hand cut mortise at a rate, but many onlookers seem to mistakenly think they have to appear to be fast in order to be highly productive. The trick is to be consistently methodical and accurate in applying good tool control and technique. As many former apprentices can attest, attempting to work at the same rate alongside an experienced hand will highlight all I've said, whilst also confirming the fact that seemingly effortless procedures (At the hands of experienced craftsmen/women) aren't as effortless as they appear.

[Derek Cohen]

Returning to the original question about honing a oval bolstered mortice chisel ...

Mine have a 20 degree primary bevel, with a freehandled roughly 35 degree secondary bevel that is created in the Sellers manner (These are the only blades with which I use this method). It is effective if you do not use a honing guide. If you do want a guide, try the Kell #1.

Would I use a BE chisel over a traditional mortice chisel? It depends on the method of waste removal, which depends on the depth of the mortice. Shallow mortces are easy (easier?) with a BE as they are really just pared. Deep mortices require some prising, and this is where the comparatively fragile BE chisels fail.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Would I use a BE chisel over a traditional mortice chisel?

Been there, done that moved on to having the heavy chisel for the heavy beating.

It is possible to make a mortise with a light chisel. If one is going to be doing this on a regular basis a mortise chisel will be a good investment if only for the peace of mind that comes with not worrying when you whack it with mighty blows.

jtk

[Jim Palmer]

Been there, done that moved on to having the heavy chisel for the heavy beating.

It is possible to make a mortise with a light chisel. If one is going to be doing this on a regular basis a mortise chisel will be a good investment if only for the peace of mind that comes with not worrying when you whack it with mighty blows.

jtk

Whacking things with mighty blows only tends to become necessary if taking part in demolition or when using an underweight hammer or mallet. Heft plays a massive part in one's ability to adequately control manipulate tools and materials. The bulk of one's effort in using hammer/mallet should be when raising the tool as it recoils from each blow and not during the downward swing. Force tends to negate control during hammer/mallet strikes. Nylon faced Thor hammers - such as those used by Paul Sellers - are very worthy of consideration for chisel work, as they combine good heft with ease of use and improved COP when striking chisel heads.

Frequent use definitely tends to justify investing in task specific tooling, but the most important element is learning to correctly match tools to the work in hand. Options for mortising are mortise chisel/pig sticker, sash mortise chisel, firmer chisel and then bevel edged firmer chisel. Each is capable of heavier work when used skilfully.

Invest in a mortise lock/swan necked chisel if waste removal in stopped mortise proves problematical. They're well worth the pennies paid.

Mortise chisels/pig stickers are excellent heavy framing chisels (e.g. work benches and house construction framing), but I'd err on the side of the sash mortise or firmer chisel for mortising in cabinet work. Cabinet work is also where the bevel edged firmer chisel comes into play as it can and does handle the mortising undertaken in most cabinetry projects.

[Chris Griggs]

Cabinet work is also where the bevel edged firmer chisel comes into play as it can and does handle the mortising undertaken in most cabinetry projects.

For me its not a question about whether or not regular bevel edge chisels can handle mortising. They most certainly can, and I certainly appreciate Mr. Sellers efforts to show people how to get the most out of the tools they have. But a for me a sash mortiser is much nicer for mortising than a BE chisel and a pigsticker is much nicer for mortising than either.... Even in cabinet work. I may be mistaking but I don't think vintage 1/8" 1/4" and 3/8" pigstickers are so plentiful because of timber framers, to me they seem to be cabinet sized tools (though I could be mistaken).

Anyway, thats just my preference. I've chopped mortises with my regular chisels, but I much MUCH prefer to use my 1/4" pigsticker...its just flat out nicer and easier to use for this task.

[Jim Koepke]

Whacking things with mighty blows only tends to become necessary if taking part in demolition or when using an underweight hammer or mallet. [snip] Force tends to negate control during hammer/mallet strikes.

Using my large mallet does not have me wanting for a heavier option.

As to control, there seems to be more control when used in conjunction with the larger handle on a pig sticker than the handles on my bevel edged and straight edged chisels of the same size.

As long as my fingers remain unsmashed, the blows only land on the head of the pig sticker and a clean mortise results it is difficult to imagine what more control one needs.

I have cut mortises with bench chisels and beveled chisels light to heavy. My preference is for a pig sticker for removing a lot of stock quickly. This in no way means it is the best method for anyone else.

jtk

[Jim Palmer]

Using my large mallet does not have me wanting for a heavier option.

As to control, there seems to be more control when used in conjunction with the larger handle on a pig sticker than the handles on my bevel edged and straight edged chisels of the same size.

As long as my fingers remain unsmashed, the blows only land on the head of the pig sticker and a clean mortise results it is difficult to imagine what more control one needs.

I have cut mortises with bench chisels and beveled chisels light to heavy. My preference is for a pig sticker for removing a lot of stock quickly. This in no way means it is the best method for anyone else.

jtk

I was simply offering a long term craftsman's perspective, as I've worked for many years using all of the chisel options regularly on a professional basis. You're quite mistaken if you're under the impression that a larger chisel haft allows you more control during use, as your point of focus should be the cutting edge and not the handle.

Your original description may tend to mislead the inexperienced reader to mistakenly think over zealous use of an underweight mallet is advisable. Hence my comments. There was no mention of larger chisel handles which offer no realistic benefit other than the possession of a larger target area and increased torque when clearing waste from larger/heavier mortise. Pig stickers aren't much more than a heavily bladed mortise chisel, traditionally hafted in a manner that's readily replaced on site if damaged during use and - the Catch 22 situation - primarily because such a handling style is very prone to splitting due to poor COP and the inclination for some to whale away on them with underweight mallets. Haft them with a hooped handle and you automatically possess a better balanced chisel.

------------

Their availability in sizes 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8" tends to confirm and doesn't deny the existing overlaps in use between the various chisel types - as I'd already very clearly stated. It merely confirms mortise & tenon joints of all sizes see use in framing and very often involving door and window construction where smaller joints often see use. All mortise chisels are framing chisels and heavy framing isn't restricted to construction work.

Hooped sash mortise chisels tend to be better suited to furniture and cabinetry work, due to their lighter handling, refined COP and resulting improvement in balance.

[David Weaver]

I'd venture so far as to say that the RI pigstickers are intended pretty much for cabinet use, regardless of historical accuracy. A lot of the pictures of the older chisels with one steep single bevel seem to suggest that they were not used for small mortises. The thickness of the chisels from top to bottom of some of the older chisels suggests the same (and some are not as large as the monstrous thing sellers pulled out).

I still would rather use the oval bolstered style. None of the handles on mine have split, but I have always hit them with a nylon mallet, and always in the center of the handle.

[Jim Koepke]

I was simply offering a long term craftsman's perspective, as I've worked for many years using all of the chisel options regularly on a professional basis. You're quite mistaken if you're under the impression that a larger chisel haft allows you more control during use, as your point of focus should be the cutting edge and not the handle.

My use of chisels allows me to focus on the edge of the blade and where it is cutting/going/doing while hitting the proper spot on the head of a chisel. Part of the added control is from the larger size of the chisel and it not being able to turn in the stock

Your original description may tend to mislead the inexperienced reader to mistakenly think over zealous use of an underweight mallet is advisable.

If that is their first lesson in physics and the transfer of force, then so be it. Some people will only learn by first doing something in an ineffective manner. They will quickly learn how a mallet of good weight will efficiently transfer energy to the item being struck with less effort than trying to do the same with a light mallet.

It seems you have misread my post or my intent. It is also likely you have not read a few of my posts about using a different mallet for different kinds of work:

Every one has their own way of doing things.

My choice is broken down as to whether the chisel is being tapped, hit, whacked or whaled upon.

Each successive term is an increase in the degree of force behind the blow of the mallet.

As stated in another thread on mallets, my large mallet weighs in at a pound and a half. Small sledges start in at 3 pounds. My plan is to make another larger mallet, but the wood has not yet come my way. A mallet of good weight will efficiently transfer energy to the item being struck with less effort than trying to do the same with a light mallet.

Hence my comments. There was no mention of larger chisel handles which offer no realistic benefit other than the possession of a larger target area and increased torque when clearing waste from larger/heavier mortise. Pig stickers aren't much more than a heavily bladed mortise chisel, traditionally hafted in a manner that's readily replaced on site if damaged during use and - the Catch 22 situation - primarily because such a handling style is very prone to splitting due to poor COP and the inclination for some to whale away on them with underweight mallets. Haft them with a hooped handle and you automatically possess a better balanced chisel.

As to control, there seems to be more control when used in conjunction with the larger handle on a pig sticker than the handles on my bevel edged and straight edged chisels of the same size.
[snip]
I have cut mortises with bench chisels and beveled chisels light to heavy. My preference is for a pig sticker for removing a lot of stock quickly. This in no way means it is the best method for anyone else.

This is where the larger handles was mentioned. With the traditional shape, it is easier, at least for me, to orient the blade.

Also mentioned was this:

This in no way means it is the best method for anyone else.

If something works better for another's style of work or what they choose to do, fine with me. What works for me may not work for you. The difference of our ways is the beauty of having a forum where these different ways or methods of work can be discussed, hopefully without disrespect for other's work or methods.

In my experience mortising is faster with a pig sticker. That is why we often say, ymmv.

All mortise chisels are framing chisels and heavy framing isn't restricted to construction work.

Hooped sash mortise chisels tend to be better suited to furniture and cabinetry work, due to their lighter handling, refined COP and resulting improvement in balance.

I am not really sure what COP means. Hope that not knowing doesn't mark me as a dunderboobie, but that doesn't bother me either.

BTW, some of my work does involve framing with larger stock. Too many smaller chisels with bellies and bows have crossed my path to want to start cutting a through mortise in 4x4 with one of my lighter chisels.

It is highly doubtful you will convince me to give up using tools already in my shop and working as well as they are.

jtk

[Jack Curtis]

...I am not really sure what COP means....

My best guess is center of phorce.

[Jim Palmer]

Try Centre Of Percussion. Striking off centre of the sweet-spot on any wooden chisel handle with any frequency or force and you soon damage either the handle, your hand or wrist. Hence the preference for hooped wooden handles of comparatively smaller diameter - to pig stickers - for heavier work.

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I've read plenty of your offerings Jim and am quite surprised you display such attitude when no offense was offered or intended. You've perhaps misunderstood the meaning within the content of my posts and misread them as personal attacks on your views.... Which they're certainly not. All I've done is convey information regarding the tools being discussed, as well as optional alternatives.

I do, however, remain surprised by your somewhat cavalier attitude concerning the fact that novice readers and users risk injury through over-powering blows when using underweight mallet if following your theory based guidance.

"If that is their first lesson in physics and the transfer of force, then so be it. Some people will only learn by first doing something in an ineffective manner. They will quickly learn how a mallet of good weight will efficiently transfer energy to the item being struck with less effort than trying to do the same with a light mallet."

[Pat Barry]

Interesting to watch the video of Paul Sellers and equally / more interesting discussion. My own (limited and frustrating) experience was with standard bench chisel. Now after watching the video I am convinced of three things. 1) my chisel was not sharp enough, 2) my wood was not straight grained enough, 3) I did not have the benefit of the glass. Item 1 I can resolve now that I have learned more about sharpening. Item 2 is another problem. Do folks generally select wood (straight grained) and make sure it is oriented in such a favorable orientation when they plan out their work? For me, I have spent more effort making sure the show face is best appearance and the worst appearance ends up where the mortise action needs to occur. I guess I'd like to use only straight grained wood but I have to work with what I have. The mortice chisel would undoubtedly work better for my situations due to geometry. I fight that stupid chisel all the time because the narrow blade gets influenced by the grain of the wood so much. Item 3 I know was for video purposes. I estimate that having two sides to cut at least doubles the work effort required and complexity of the task, none the less it was very illustrative of the techniques and for that I am grateful.

[Jim Koepke]

Try Centre Of Percussion.

I've read plenty of your offerings Jim and am quite surprised you display such attitude when no offense was offered or intended. You've perhaps misunderstood the meaning within the content of my posts and misread them as personal attacks on your views.... Which they're certainly not. All I've done is convey information regarding the tools being discussed, as well as optional alternatives.

I do, however, remain surprised by your somewhat cavalier attitude concerning the fact that novice readers and users risk injury through over-powering blows when using underweight mallet if following your theory based guidance.

"If that is their first lesson in physics and the transfer of force, then so be it. Some people will only learn by first doing something in an ineffective manner. They will quickly learn how a mallet of good weight will efficiently transfer energy to the item being struck with less effort than trying to do the same with a light mallet."

You inferred my suggesting people use smaller mallets and overdrive them. I did not. You somehow came to the conclusion that my largest mallet is some kind of light weight and therefore my suggestion of everyone should find what works best for them somehow means they should start out flailing away with a light weight mallet.

To me, it seems you are not only being critical of me personally, but you are also trying to change the meaning of what I have said.

If someone is "following theory based guidance" they would know about force and mass. If they want to use mallets and chisels, they should know before they start.

My most heart felt statement in all of this and in many other instances is people need to use the method that works best for them.

My statement about "first lesson in physics" comes from a real life situation where I made a very light mallet for a friend. It was intended for use on his home made chiming instrument. He was extremely happy with it. So happy in fact he decided to take it with him camping to drive tent stakes. He learned quickly he had made a mistake. He learned about the application and transfer of force. He did not injure himself other than his pride. That is sometimes the price of learning.

We can all learn from all we do.

We may disagree, but we can agree to so do.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Interesting to watch the video of Paul Sellers and equally / more interesting discussion. My own (limited and frustrating) experience was with standard bench chisel. Now after watching the video I am convinced of three things. 1) my chisel was not sharp enough, 2) my wood was not straight grained enough, 3) I did not have the benefit of the glass. Item 1 I can resolve now that I have learned more about sharpening. Item 2 is another problem. Do folks generally select wood (straight grained) and make sure it is oriented in such a favorable orientation when they plan out their work? For me, I have spent more effort making sure the show face is best appearance and the worst appearance ends up where the mortise action needs to occur. I guess I'd like to use only straight grained wood but I have to work with what I have. The mortice chisel would undoubtedly work better for my situations due to geometry. I fight that stupid chisel all the time because the narrow blade gets influenced by the grain of the wood so much. Item 3 I know was for video purposes. I estimate that having two sides to cut at least doubles the work effort required and complexity of the task, none the less it was very illustrative of the techniques and for that I am grateful.

What you're experiencing is exactly why a sash mortise (or a fairly thinly tipped pigsticker like the RI chisels) is preferable to a bench chisel for cutting mortises. It's not that you can't use a bench chisel, but the thin sides mean that you will have to provide more influence in terms of twist to keep the chisel on track.

A sash mortise chisel with a relatively long handle and good steel might be nice, but I'm not aware of anyone making any such thing. LN's sash mortise is expensive for what it is and the handle is short. You shouldn't have to be that picky about the wood if the chisel is designed for mortising.