LN Improved Workbench

[David Weaver]

Either that, or they have the option of getting a free bench because they have sponsors. Or perhaps even they must use the benches supplied to them as part an advertising contract.

Professional woodworkers (as opposed to people who make their revenue from TV more so than dollars from projects commissioned on their own merits) would be a better barometer.

[george wilson]

But,David,pros wouldn't be any fun. The millwork Shop in the museum did literally tons of work every year. Everything from making new or rebuilding lawn furniture,repairing horse drawn wagons,rebuilding stair cases. Everything. They even made a fine coach there years ago before I came in 1970.

Their benches were very large,like 3" or more wide X 10' long,made from nailed together 2" x 6"'s,with formica or something else on their tops to keep them smooth. They had 1 old regular type cast iron vise per bench. They sharpened their tools with india stones sitting in a gallon can half full of kerosene. No strops. I did give 1 guy a fractionate years ago,before I found out they were valuable! He has re flattened it till it is about half original thickness. Oh,they have a worn diamond stone,too. They use large old wheel (normal) grinders to grind their tools. Their Northfield bandsaw forever has a 1/2" blade in it,never welded straight by the maintenance blacksmith. I gave them a nearly new 18" Jet I had bought,but wasn't satisfied with,after I wasted more money buying Carter guide outfits for it. I squeezed the old 20" Delta into it's place. Had thought the Delta was too big to go where I re positioned it.

They had 1 set of a dozen old carving tools. One of them used one of those horrid rasp/chisels someone gave him. A favorite thing to do was take a LONG planer blade and make the longest chisel in the shop from it. Their ancient Crescent wood lathe's tailstock was way out of line with the headstock,causing frequent re tightening of the tailstock to be needed. The oscillating rotary action caused the spur center to eat into the wood. I meant to fix that,but didn't get to it.

With this equipment they made some pretty remarkable stuff.

[David Weaver]

I don't remember the big rush for perfect looking benches until there was a book written about it. I remember you telling me you gave that guy a super punjab stone to sharpen. I can imagine he probably likes it a lot.

I have a pretty good idea what I'm going to do when I finally break the bench that I have. The bottom of the bench top isn't going to be perfect, and I'll probably get a used front vise (not QR) of the type that doesn't have a metal jaw, and a simple tail vise. But for sure it will be 8 feet long to make it nice to cut mouldings, and it will have a skirt so I can put pegs in the skirt to plane long boards.

Well, if a big H&H bench shows up on CL here for a thousand or less, I'd probably get that, but the odds of it showing up for more than new price is better than that.

[george wilson]

When a well worn old bench does show up,I think often as not,it is snapped up by some interior decorator as a decorative item. Could end up in a Cracker Barrel restaurant.

[David Weaver]

There are plenty here that should be reassigned for that. One every month or so on CL, maybe. there was one the last time I looked that was about 5 feet long with three flatsawn boards laid flat on the surface, and it was OLD. The middle board ends probably stuck up 3" above the plane of the table.

[Winton Applegate]

Selling furniture to furniture makers.
It's like trying to sell ice to Eskimos.
I have to stick my tung in my cheek when ever I see wooden tool boxes and metal drawer component thingys for making quick work shop drawers sold in woodworking tool catalogs.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/pag...37&cat=1,43326
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/200...ool-chest.aspx
Yah gotta love it.
What's next ? The guy in the fridge truck showing up at a cattle ranch trying to sell them beef ?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have to stick my tung in my cheek when ever I see wooden tool boxes and metal drawer component thingys for making quick work shop drawers sold in woodworking tool catalogs.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/pag...37&cat=1,43326
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/200...ool-chest.aspx
Yah gotta love it.
What's next ? The guy in the fridge truck showing up at a cattle ranch trying to sell them beef ?

I don't know - I enjoy making shop things, and it's a good place to practice joinery on something that doesn't quite "matter" as much as nice piece for the living room, but ready made solutions are nice, too. I have limited time in the shop, I'd rather spend it doing something I enjoy. When I enjoy making a shop thing, I go for it. When I don't, I buy.

If I was doing this to make any sort of money, every minute spent making something to store my tools would be a minute spent not making something I could actually sell to my customer. A pre-made drawer or solution is great at this point if the cost is right.

[Pat Barry]

I tend to agree with Winton. Even if I were a professional, which I certainly am not, making my own jigs and fixtures would be the preference. I would get EXACTLY what I need and the price would be right. Now certainly that doesn't mean i would make my own drill bits, but if I've got to buy a workbench for my shop, then someone has to pay for it somehow and if I buy a $2000 bench with $600 plus shipping cost, that cost has to be amortized across pieces I make and that drives my price up. I would insist on building nearly everything I could out of wood scraps I had left over from completed jobs and doing it while I am waiting for glue to dry on paying customer projects. I'm not dissing the LN bench. Its a beauty and obviously there are customers for it. For me though, as a hobbyist, even if I got this as a gift I would rather have had the money spent on lots of other things I need.

[Steve Meliza]

Here is the best of both worlds:
http://benchcrafted.blogspot.com/p/t...o-project.html

You pay $4500 plus travel, food, and lodging and you still get to build it yourself! Wonder of wonders, they are full up and have a wait list.

[David Weaver]

There are plenty of doctors, lawyers and retirees.... I used to say doctors and lawyers, but stole the retirees part from Warren M, as he pointed out the one-subject classes in general are unlikely to be populated by professional woodworkers.

[John Sanford]

Selling furniture to furniture makers.

Happens all the time. Do you know how much software the average programmer buys? Why, surely he could write it himself!

It's like trying to sell ice to Eskimos.

No, it very much unlike selling ice to Eskimos. Eskimos don't MAKE the ice.

I have to stick my tung in my cheek when ever I see wooden tool boxes and metal drawer component thingys for making quick work shop drawers sold in woodworking tool catalogs.

Yep, for folks who would rather build furniture than shop stuff, it makes sense.

Yah gotta love it.
What's next ? The guy in the fridge truck showing up at a cattle ranch trying to sell them beef ?

Yes. Because its a cattle ranch, not a meat packing plant. Heck, you might even find store bought ice cream at a DAIRY. Heaven forfend!

[David Weaver]

Purchasing code is not similar to purchasing a workbench. There's a WHOLE lot more intellectual capital in purchasing code, and I can pass 1000 people a piece of code for essentially the same price as 1. That makes it so that it won't make economic sense for me to write code that is already standardized and available.

The same economics don't exist with the benches.

[Tai Fu]

If you're running a furniture production shop and you want to be building now, then it makes sense to buy workbench that you know is going to work.

Also I find that the whole marketing thing seems to have little to do with common sense, because many successful products make very little sense if you really think about it.

[Mark Roderick]

Certainly an interesting thread, though somewhat predictable.

I am also one of those that would have recommended building a bench, as I did. But when I stop and think about it, why a bench? Why not purchase a bench and build, say, a chair or a table or a canoe paddle?

I don't think there's a rational answer to that question.

Why do we purchase Lie Nielsen planes rather than build our own? Why not build our own straight-edges and squares? Why is using electric lights okay but not electric saws? When we start trying to draw lines in this area we're really talking about aesthetic choices, or lifestyle choices, as to which there can never be a right or wrong answer or even, frankly, worthwhile advice. It's just "What kind of aesthetic do you prefer?"

As to the value of a Lie-Nielsen bench, I do think it's silly to say they're "too much." Compared to what? Compared to a Unisaw? If we were hired to build a bench I pretty much guaranty that none of us would do it for $2,650 delivered across the country. Does that mean beginninger should buy a Lie-Nielsen bench rather than build one? It is irrelevant to the question. It's like asking whether I should spend $2,650 on a tool or go on a ski trip.

Just my thoughts.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, we all know that in these threads where everyone is qualified to opine (since there really are none, other than having bought or made a bench, or at least having thought about it).

The comparison to the planes, though....certainly there's no reason to ever buy an LN plane. A beginner will find themselves more competent with them - the mouth is clean, little needs to be done to the iron, they are super flat - but after a while, you find that there's no advantage in tearout with them, the chipbreaker isn't a better design than the original and really the only practical advantage they have over a flat vintage plane is that the iron is better quality.

But, if you were going to try to make a plane, you'd find it hard to do if you thought you'd like to make a casting, etc. Or anything out of metal.

The unisaw would be particularly difficult to shop make.

But the bench isn't. And the specs (type of wood, type of vises, etc) are more variable.

All of that said, if I was made of money and thought I'd never move, I'd buy a bench. If I really hated the idea of building a bench that much, I'd make a bench. If I had irrational desire to start building mediocre items right away that were not for clients paying more than the bench was worth...then I'd probably do it. And, of course, if I find an 8 foot bench with a tail vise being dumped for half of new price, I'd probably buy it.

But the bench doesn't fit in the space for planes, for software, for unisaws, because they're not the same thing. I hope we stop talking about them soon, though, or I'm going to end up making one as soon as I'm done redoing my kitchen. And I really don't need a better bench at this point.