Lie Nielsen new waterstones

[Dave Cav]

If didn't have a good set of Shapton pro stones I'd be looking at these. The combo stones appear to be a pretty good deal. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=2-OHISHII

[Frederick Skelly]

Yeah, they do look tempting.

[Ray Bohn]

Yeah, they do look tempting.

I just used my new 1000/8000 combination stone tonight. Since this is my first experience with anything other than wet/dry and LV micro abrasive sheets my opinion is very biased. I am very pleased with the results. I use a Atoma diamond plate for flattening. I am glad I struggled learning how to sharpen on relatively inexpensive disposable material. I would have been bummed if I a gouged or destroyed a waterstone when I first started.

[Charlie Stanford]

If didn't have a good set of Shapton pro stones I'd be looking at these. The combo stones appear to be a pretty good deal. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=2-OHISHII

L-N recommend these for 'day-to-day' sharpening. What other kind is there?

[Chris Griggs]

L-N recommend these for 'day-to-day' sharpening. What other kind is there?

Academic sharpening of course!

[Metod Alif]

Chris,
Did you mean 'academic' as 'irrelevant' or 'those who can't do but can talk about it'.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Chris Griggs]

Chris,
Did you mean 'academic' as 'irrelevant' or 'those who can't do but can talk about it'.
Best wishes,
Metod

More in the sense of folks (and I include myself in this bunch), who like to mess around with sharpening and sharpening stones beyond the point of what is needed for most woodworking. For example, I keep 0.1 micron iron oxide around that I use as a final step on my straight razors...I've thought about bringing some down to the shop to try my plane blades on... it might be interesting, but there would be no practical purpose for it in terms of getting any actual woodworking done - so it would really just be an academic exercise. I was poking fun at myself.

[Mark Roderick]

I believe Lie-Nielsen used to sell Nortons and then Shaptons. I wonder whether they're selling these new stones because they are really better or for more mundane reasons.

[David Weaver]

Probably more mundane reasons, like supply, margin, demand for something "exciting".

When they went to shapton glasstones, it was a real head scratcher. 42 hundred other retailers sell them, and LN likes to mark their stuff up more than other folks. Shapton can sometimes have supply issues, too. I don't know if that was the case there, but shapton has had spurts in the past where this or that stone could be difficult to find until they ran another batch. Shaptons in the US also come through harrelson stanley, which doesn't make them any cheaper. I don't know what dealer agents in japan charge for ohishi, but figure that LN is better off selling something nobody else does unless they want to compete on price.

No clue what the ohishi stones are, if they are magnesia binder or resin, but it makes little difference. There's no great divide between any of the modern stones once you know how fine they actually are.

I see the epicurean edge has them about 10-15% cheaper.

[Chris Griggs]

I briefly used them once. They're good stones, definitely better than Nortons (which are perfectly good stones in there own right). That said I don't think the Ohishi are categorically better than Shaptons, Sigmas, or any of the good ceramic stones on market. More of a case of different strokes for different folks. I could use a 3k stone (sort of, not urgently) and the price is right on that one, maybe I should buy the 3k and have it sent to Dave's or Archie's house so we can get a full review/good comparison to the other major players on the market.

[David Weaver]

I wonder what they are. LN is notorious for not telling you anything about what they're selling, and just saying "we recommend these for...".

OK, what's binding them? It's kind of important to know. They look like many of imanishi's offerings, but that doesn't mean that they are made by imanishi. Epicurean edge describes them as "clay matrix", which sounds odd, especially for a 1000 grit stone. One of the knife forums recommends for them to be soaked for 15 minutes.

If they are magnesia or softer resin stones, they could provide an inexpensive alternative to choseras, though they're probably softer since people call choseras "hard" stones. Relative term. I'd call them usable hardness though a touch harder would be preferable.

Between the shapton pros and the sigma power stones (the 1200 is monster hard, and the 13k is super fine), there's not a lot of room for improvement. They are a great improvement over the first generation of stones (like kings, etc) but they are at the practical limit pretty much of abrasive density and quality.

[Metod Alif]

Folks who develop/manufacture the stones must have their own focus. How much do they learn from users' experience. How much is new for the sake of 'new' - as to create/expand the market?
Can you compare .5 micron chromium oxide with your iron oxide? Initial sharpness, and sharpness after a few strokes? Would be interesting? What is the 'sharpness limit' for a particular type of steel?
Best wishes,
Metod

[Mark Roderick]

"Probably more mundane reasons, like supply, margin, demand for something 'exciting'."

I'm betting you are absolutely right David.

[Chris Griggs]

Can you compare .5 micron chromium oxide with your iron oxide? Initial sharpness, and sharpness after a few strokes? Would be interesting? What is the 'sharpness limit' for a particular type of steel?
Best wishes,
Metod

Well Dave's probably a better person to answer this than me, but here are my completely non-expert unqualified thoughts (most of which I got from him anyway and then kinda just verified for myself)

I think .5 micron chromium oxide reaches the practical limit of anything you'll notice on woodworking, and even then its probably not practical for most work. The only place I've ever really noticed much improvement in use with chromium oxide is with very light paring chisel cuts. That level of finesse can be worthwhile on smoother as well, but their again its really only going to be noticed for the finest work. The initial keeness from that level of sharpness is lost almost as soon as you touch blade to wood anyway especially if you are doing anything other than super fine cuts. (though perhaps it still extends some amount of sharpness even once the initial keeness is lost).

0.1 micron iron oxide is insanely awesome in terms of what it does to an edge, but the only way I can identify the improvement over chromium oxide is with a hanging hair test (HHT) or by actually shaving. When shaving with a straight razor you feel the difference on your face. Iron Oxide will create an exceptionally smooth keen edge that may actually be too sharp for some people who have bumpier skin than me. (too sharp means those little bumps get shaved off) Fortunately, I don't have that issue, so for me it just creates a super smooth edge that doesn't tug at all. I don't even strop at all...I just shave off of the iron ox. Using the HHT you see the difference by how it cuts the hanging hair. If I stop at the CrOx my razors will pop hanging hairs pretty easily, but sometimes will catch and split rather than POP. Once I take the razor to Iron Ox the hairs literally "ping" (yes you can hear it) off the edge when you pull them across it, even when I am holding the hair a good distance out from the cutting edge.

I haven't done a direct side by side comparison like this l on tools, but my thoughts are that any improvement in edge IronOx would offer over CrOx would be lost the second blade touches wood. Unless you are doing a lot delicate paring in softwoods (such as what like John Coloccia does in his guitar making) or maybe if you are a world renowned sushi chef, even CrOx is probably overkill. Yes, it will make the edges sharper but that doesn't necessarily transmit to anything that will help you in your woodworking, especially if you are already honing up to about the one micron level with stones. If your finest stone is below say 8k, than CrOx is a great way to cheaply get your blades sharper when you need it w/o having to drop big money on a super fine stone (this is how I use it in the shop), but again for someone who already has a stone that is 1 micron (give or take) the extra sharpness you get from the CrOx probably won't translate to the wood. Iron Ox or anything below .5 micron is probably a total waste of time and money...time better spent making sure one does a good job on their lower grit stones. This level of honing is pretty far down the rabbet hole. It's fun/interesting stuff to play with on those nights and weekends your to busy or too tired to getting any real work done in the shop, and perhaps a good self education to learn the practical limits of different levels of sharp, but it won't likely do much to improve anyone woodworking.

As far as ultimate sharpness in steel goes all I know is I've only ever got one tool to pass a hanging hair test, and that was a vintage parer honed at 20 degrees (though I have some japanese parers on the way that I will try to get that sharp). That chisel cut super sweet for a handful of strokes, and would have only been useful for the finest of fitting operations. I can say that good vintage carbon steel razors are made out of something magical, as are good vintage paring chisels, and I'm told good japanese edge tools, but I can't explain why or what the difference is other than to generically say that I've been told those steels are harder and finer grained. Someone who knows more than me will need to explain that.

[David Weaver]

I agree with that. A 1 micron stone makes a nice stopping point because there's really no perceptible difference in sharpness vs. chromium oxide if you bare-leather strop the edge (big difference in a shave, though).

Anything finer than chromium oxide would get blasted off in the first cut or two with woodworking tools, and most of the really fine abrasives, aside from diamonds, are really messy because they're pigments.

Fine diamonds are the exception, but fine diamonds never impart the edge quality they seem like they should for their size, and I think they're detrimental to really hard plain carbon steel.

I like one medium stone and one modern 1 micron stone. Super nice to use, and super fast.