Lie Nielsen new waterstones

[David Barnett]

Fine diamonds are the exception, but fine diamonds never impart the edge quality they seem like they should for their size, and I think they're detrimental to really hard plain carbon steel.

Without going too deeply into polishing esoterica, I agree, although I'd say deleterious to the edge rather than to the hardened carbon steel itself.

What you're describing, the continued scratching of sub-micron diamond on tool steel to polish an edge, is where the return on diamond diminishes and the advantages of oxide media start to kick in.

Gem faceters, especially those who facet for judged competition—a whole 'nother level from sharpening—distinguish between gem species polished with diamond and those polished with oxides. Much has been written about the two differing polishing paradigms—and I use polishing to describe the final finish on steel cutting edges and gem surfaces—and which gem species respond best to each.

Diamond conforms to the ever finer scratch paradigm; oxide polishes to the Beilby layer flow paradigm*. For those unfamiliar with Beilby flow, it explains, among other things, why some species of crystalline and non-crystalline materials can be polished by oxide polishes that may be softer than those surfaces being polishing; in other words, why iron oxide—jeweler's rouge—can polish the outermost molecular layer of hardened tool steel, rearranging and disorienting its crystalline alignments into a smoother amorphous surface.

Depending on the steel and its hardened and tempered crystalline state, one may determine a point where shifting from diamond to oxides may be desirable. As a rule of thumb, I stop at 1µ diamond and shift to .5µ chromium oxide.

I like one medium stone and one modern 1 micron stone. Super nice to use, and super fast.

Fast is where it's at for woodworking tools—600-grit polycrystalline Eze-Lap to 1µ diamond paste, then optionally, to .5µ CrO2.

*Aggregation and flow of solids; being the records of an experimental study of the micro-structure and physical properties of solids in various states of aggregation, by Sir George Thomas Beilby, a real page turner—well, at least for some of us.

Download at http://archive.org/details/aggregationflowo00beilrich

[David Weaver]

David, I agree, though you know much more about what happens sub micron than I do.

When I convinced Chris Griggs that he should shave with a straight razor, he one-upped the razor I sent him by locating 0.1 micron iron oxide. I don't really use that kind of stuff on my razor (vintage linen instead),but I couldn't resist given it doesn't cost much. I was shocked (given its hardness) how fast the surface on a balsa lap with iron oxide was stained with swarf from the razor.

Plus, you convinced me to get the ezelap a while ago and other than on the hardest carbon steel I have, I use it in combination with a shapton 1 micron stone and I can't say I've ever been as quick back to the bench without compromising on the sharpness. Super great thing to have around for the few things that I have that really require a fresh surface on a shapton medium stone (the mujingfang irons that are made of the equivalent of 62 hardness rubber, and some chisels I got from stu)

[Mel Fulks]

I doubt seriously that any of our members ,or contributors, do not know more than enough about that pair of dimes.

[David Barnett]

With money being so freely printed these days, that pair o' dimes I used to rub together barely covers my two cents' worth.

[David Barnett]

When I convinced Chris Griggs that he should shave with a straight razor, he one-upped the razor I sent him by locating 0.1 micron iron oxide.

So Mr. Griggs, it would appear, is actively questing for that perfect edge. Happens.

Do you think he knows he can get iron oxide down to .01µ and even smaller? That's right, less than 10 nanometers. Perhaps it's best not to tell him.

I was shocked (given its hardness) how fast the surface on a balsa lap with iron oxide was stained with swarf from the razor.

Amazing, isn't it? Although my uses for rouge are more for gold and silversmithing, I do use it to polish steel, as well—just not for woodworking edge tools, although I did use an old blackened horsehide strop charged with rouge for bookbinding parers decades ago. I now rouge stakes, anvils, swage blocks, daps, punches, forming tools, planishing and forging hammers to encourage the smooth, unmarred flow of cold-worked metal on metal.

Lately I'm working on a series of bespoke watch dials in basse taille enamel and the tiny repoussé punches, chasing tools and gravers are polished with rouge, which makes all the difference, as it's so fine and mild as to not appreciably alter the geometries of tool faces. A less polished planishing punch or liner will grab the very thin, fine silver or 22k gold, with unwanted effects, perhaps even tearing them.

Anyway, small and hard as these tools are, a few strokes on charged orangewood or a touch on a flexshaft buff charged with rouge and both immediately show black. Steel is smoothed and removed—precious little steel, mind you, but steel nonetheless—and as I don't temper the ends of these punches, they're glass hard.

While it's a little slower, finer and messier than what I need in the woodshop, fancy rust is good stuff.

[Chris Griggs]

So Mr. Griggs, it would appear, is actively questing for that perfect edge. Happens.

Do you think he knows he can get iron oxide down to .01µ and even smaller? That's right, less than 10 nanometers. Perhaps it's best not to tell him.

Ha. That's insanity, even for me, even for razors. I think at that level one would just flay of their skin...bit too close of a shave for my taste.

Fancy rust...as you put is indeed amazing stuff though.

BTW, for any other crazy folks out there the cheapest way to get iron oxide (or chromium oxide) is from a pigment seller. This is the specific one to get: Iron Oxide 110M from Kremer Pigments. You cannot just get any iron oxide or any chromium oxide, there are specific ones that are suitable for honing. I ran across them on a razor forum after I paid the same money for much less compound from a razor supply seller (though you use so little that it doesn't really matter). Kremer also sells a .3 micron CroOx the the razor people like although I use some .5 micron stuff I got from another seller. Again, though there is really no reason to get anything other the .5 CrOx for the woodshop...CrOx is nice because it has some cutting power and will get an edge as fine as any you'll ever need. It cuts well enough that it follows finish and pre finish stones very very well (even then its not often I do anything beyond my 8k stone).

Ummm, what was this thread about again? Oh yeah, those Ohishi waterstones that LN is selling. Anyone buy one yet?

[Metod Alif]

Chris,
Thanks for a good/practical explanation. I am so used to chromium oxide that I do not think of it as an overkill. It represents an obvious improvement over #8000 water stone. Following David Barnett's 'education', I invested few bucks into diamond powder (currently with cast iron or scrap Corian). I am very pleased with his sharpening schedule.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Weaver]

Chris,
Thanks for a good/practical explanation. I am so used to chromium oxide that I do not think of it as an overkill. It represents an obvious improvement over #8000 water stone. Following David Barnett's 'education', I invested few bucks into diamond powder (currently with cast iron or scrap Corian). I am very pleased with his sharpening schedule.
Best wishes,
Metod

The chromium oxide level of sharpness is like air conditioning. Once you have it, you really don't want to go back down a step.

I find David's advice and explanations extremely useful, too. Glad to see him posting over here.

[David Weaver]

Anyway, small and hard as these tools are, a few strokes on charged orangewood or a touch on a flexshaft buff charged with rouge and both immediately show black. Steel is smoothed and removed—precious little steel, mind you,

There's something very satisfying about sharpening economy like that. I don't know what it is, but it's one of the things appealing to me about the good japanese chisels, though it does take a decent finish stone to keep them in shape.

It also exists with the vintage linens, which have some sort of chalk and wax type of concoction on them. They sound like a zipper when you pass a razor over them, and the razor rings as it comes off of each stroke. It seems something that's certainly destined to damage the edge, but no such thing happens and the effect is even more gentle than iron oxide. What occurs is only a very slight graying of the linen over, so far, about 50 uses (which is about 3000 or so passes of a razor). It conditions the edge so well that I'm not really sure how often a razor would need to see the stones, maybe every 6 months? maybe a year? without it, it's a schedule of every two weeks or so back to the stones. I think a decent strop of that type could maintain a razor with minimal honing and have the razor still nearly be full after a lifetime of use. It allows you to use an orphan razor heavily without worrying about it being consumed. The finest razors that were made in the early 1900s will probably never again be matched.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris,
Thanks for a good/practical explanation. I am so used to chromium oxide that I do not think of it as an overkill. It represents an obvious improvement over #8000 water stone. Following David Barnett's 'education', I invested few bucks into diamond powder (currently with cast iron or scrap Corian). I am very pleased with his sharpening schedule.
Best wishes,
Metod

Yeah, I don't disagree about the CrOx not being total overkill, it's more that I think its the practical limit. Though I don't think its always a necessary either. The "necessity" of something like CrOx has a lot to do with what your finest stone is and what you are doing. My finest stone like yours is an 8k so CrOx is an obvious improvement (and also a great way to touchup tools) for me as well, but I simply don't always bother with that improvement...depends on the task and the tool. If your finishing stone is something finer than 8k the returns you get from CrOx likely diminish.

Anyway, looking back at my earlier post I overemphasized my point about CrOx being potentially overkill. It definitely has a lot of potential to be useful in the shop, but I always try to distinguish between something that is "needed" and something that is nice to have. I really only use mine on paring chisels and my finish smoother. Everything else stops at 8k unless I'm just playing around. If I was working with a stone that was closer to 1 micron, I likely wouldn't bother with CrOx at all (or very very rarely). That's just me though, as I really try to keep honing to a 2 step process. The extent to which any individual woodworker will find something at a .5 micron level useful is probably just that, very individual..it depends on the tools, the wood, the type of work - though its so darn cheap there is no reason for someone not to try it if they want to see for themselves whether or not the extra step is worth it.

In all honesty, I go back in forth with all this stuff. I go through phases where I feel like anything less than the sharpest possible edge isn't enough, and other phases where I think a good 5k-6k stone (like a sigma 6k or shapton 5k) is plenty good enough for most of what I do. I can be pretty wishy washy about it depending on what I'm working on and to some extent just what I randomly happen to think matters doing at the moment.

[Metod Alif]

Chris,
I like your wishy washy 'random flexibility' or is it 'flexible randomness'. Being dogmatic about sharpening is probably not your forte..
Best wishes,
Metod

[Chris Griggs]

Chris,
I like your wishy washy 'random flexibility' or is it 'flexible randomness'. Being dogmatic about sharpening is probably not your forte..
Best wishes,
Metod

Thanks Metod... I'd say more of random flexibility than flexible randomness

[Mark Roderick]

David, please translate that for me. Meaning, which stones or other devices do you use on a day-to-day basis?

[David Weaver]

David, please translate that for me. Meaning, which stones or other devices do you use on a day-to-day basis?

Tracing this back to the threaded mode, it looks like this was a question for me and not david barnett?

For carbon steel tools (like vintage stuff), I use a shapton 1000 pro and a shapton 15000 pro.

If the steel is not carbon steel, I now use a 600 grit ezelap and the shapton 15000 pro. It's a little faster overall just because you never have to do anything with the diamond hone other than use it, and it is totally indifferent to one of the planes I use often that has a high speed steel iron.

[Mark Roderick]

The "like vintage stuff" includes typical modern-day tools like Veritas and Lie-Nielsen?