Track Saws and Rails

[Will Blick]

Nowhere in the video did I demonstrate--or even hint at--such a thing. The comment was that if you over-tighten a setscrew into aluminum, you can dimple (dent) the aluminum. That applies to any piece of aluminum, but some people have a tendency of over-tightening setscrews, and damaging surfaces.

Rick, I suggest you re-read my post...

You commented on this, which I wrote...

> as you demonstrated above, we are talking "small amounts" here, often not visible to the eye.

I was referring to.... the "small amounts" of error at the rail joint, which is magnified as the rails get longer... it was YOU who stated this, and DEMONSTRATED such in a numerical example earlier in this thread, right? I attempted to give you credit for such, but as they say, no good deed goes.."...." anyway, below is the part of your #26 post, in case you forgot, or others jumped into this thread late in the game.....

> The potential problem is that you are trying to create an accurate 10-foot (or more) straightedge that is controlled by a 7-inch wide butt joint. Simply having a 0.010" skew at the butt joint translates to 0.080" skew at the end of the 55" rail. (If decimal is hard to picture, that's 1/128" error causing a 1/16" skew.)

And yes, in addition, its easy to over tighten the screws, dimpling the rails. Anyway, hope this clears up what I thought was quite obvious...

[Rick Christopherson]

Rick, I suggest you re-read my post...

There is a huge difference between commas and periods, and how they impact a sentence. As written, your sentence suggested that I demonstrated that the setscrews were causing the rails to go out of alignment during joining. Based on your followup, it would appear that your single sentence was supposed to be two or more unrelated sentences.

[Will Blick]

IMO, a question would have been appropriate if u found my post confusing.
more importantly, is it clear now???
If not, I will revise my post, create more sentences, then, send to you off-list for approval,
then modify my post accordingly. Fair enuff?

[Will Blick]

For those interested, the Betterley is an impressive straight edge, considering the limited price and multi use. ..... from Betterley

We machine all surfaces of the StraightLine Connector to help insure stability and accuracy, with that said it is aluminum and can be affected by the environment (heat in particular). The CNC machining center we use to machine the Straightline Connector is accurate to plus or minus .0003" over 40", to be safe let's say the straight edge is accurate plus or minus .001".

[Tom Ewell]

Wow, if it was something that would stay on the track during a cut, that wouldn't be bad.

I agree, perhaps Festool ought to get on the stick and figure out a more substantial self aligning connector and market it as accessory for reasonable retrofit for the older models and include it on the new.
Festool offers high quality and excellent customer support but it does come at a fairly high fixed price. When the Bosch does come over to US with its apparent superior connection then the new wave of buyers like Julie just might find it more appealing and go that way.

But when all it is doing is acting as a straightedge during connecting, that seems a little ridiculous. For $20, I would rather have a 3-foot level.

Yes, that's all it is doing but it also holds firm until the connectors are snugged up on both sides providing the most rigidity before unclamping the straight edge and stressing the joint.
While your $20 level may allow you to set straight the first connector there is a very real potential to misalign during the flip over to get to the second connector, it can be frustrating to find that the alignment got tweaked during a mishandled flip with the need to start over. After the connectors are set, any bumps causing problems are on me, it would just be nice to have the initial setup to be a little more foolproof which the Betterley and Mafell/Bosch solutions seem to provide.

[Will Blick]

Tom, your response to Rick C's post almost reads identical to my comments on Ricks post, I guess great minds think alike :-)

I don't think what u are asking for is possible. No good place to connect to the rail, nearly all surfaces make contact with the saw, or the work piece. After seeing those other rails, maybe Festool has a new rail in the works that is more rigid and has a joining system that can remain affixed. But keep in mind, the cost of the connectors might be so costly, it might make sense to buy a better selection of rails. And if u are careful, and learn to always do a final safety check... the system is pretty good as is....

[Tom Ewell]

Will,
Yeah the system is good, no real complaints here either.

All it might take is modifying of what they use now. It's fairly common practice to use expandable washers to zero play miter slot bars, maybe they can come up with milled reference edge and expand washers to align and setscrew to lock it down.

[Julie Moriarty]

Mafell sells in the US, though the one place I know you can go to to buy Mafell doesn't list their rails. Would the Mafell rail work with Festool, Makita and other brands? If I remember correctly, the Mafell track saw can be used on a Festool rail. If Mafell rails worked with Festool track saws, and the Mafell rail connectors align the track properly and hold it in place, the Mafell rail may be the solution to frustrated Festool owners.

Any UK members who own Mafell or Bosch rails, feel free to comment! (This post is buried so deep maybe a new thread would increase the chance our UK friends would see this?)

[Rick Christopherson]

Julie, forgive me if this comes across the wrong way, but in my opinion, you, Tom, and Will are trying to resolve a problem that really doesn't exist. I am not sure how this thought originated, so I can only speculate. Prior to this thread, I have never heard about anyone being concerned about joining rails. As a matter of fact, Per Swenson (a member here) even has a photograph showing somewhere around 30 to 50 feet of rails being joined together to trim a commercial bar top.

One possible source of this is that for a few years, the Festool Trainers in Las Vegas and Indiana were mistakenly telling students to use the saw itself to straddle the rails while connecting them as a means to set them parallel. When I learned about that procedure several years ago, I contacted the VP and CEO of Festool, and that procedure was immediately withdrawn from the training courses. That procedure didn't do what the trainers thought is was doing, and for that time period, it was resulting in people joining rails with a potential and unknown skew. Unfortunately, unlearning an "officially sanctioned" procedure takes time for that information to be disseminated to the masses, so it took a while for people to learn that it had been pulled from the curriculum.

Even though that procedure got pulled from the curriculum several years ago, some tool owners were still repeating it for a while. As recently as 6 months ago, that procedure was still being re-told by FOG members that had gone through past training classes. It may still be presented on non-Festool forums, but it is no longer presented by forum users that are aware of the proper procedure.

When the trainers re-did their procedures, they added the need to put a gap between the rails. I disagree with that need, but it is not worth expending my connections to Festool management to get that pulled from training. It doesn't hurt (maybe), but it is not necessary either, and you will not find it described in my manuals. (One poster in this thread commented on it, or I wouldn't have even brought it up.) Actually, in hindsight, maybe that was the reason that poster was having problems. I don't condone the gap, and quite possibly it is the reason why the poster commented on having his rails get knocked out of true with usage. If that is the case, then I will kick it up to management to get it removed from the curriculum.

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Regarding the Betterly device, I wouldn't care if someone wanted to buy it, but in my expert opinion, it is a gimmick. It plays on marketing hype, and I personally do not like any product that uses that means for sales. It means that you still have to carry around a separate component, but instead of being a $20 level, you now have to use a $100 jig that serves less functionality to what is already in your tool kit.

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Regarding the Bosch saw, I am a huge fan of Bosch. I like the tools that they make. The VP of Festool USA even came from Bosch before taking the job at Festool. (To the best of my knowledge, the Bosch and Festool companies are friends with each other.) However, there are some things I noticed about their version of the saw that leaves me with questions.

First off, based solely on the video you posted earlier, I suspect that the connecting bar for their rails is actually plastic. I don't know if that is true (but I suspect it is), then it will not be as accurate as it would appear. It will likely be less accurate that the steel connecting bars most other tool manufacturers use. If it is plastic, as I assume, then it would have far more flex than the steel bars used by Festool, Makita, and DeWalt. It would give you a false sense of security.

Secondly, I also noticed a few minutes previous in the video, that you cannot use off-the-shelf clamps with the Bosch rails. Festool and Makita both designed their T-slots to accept standard aftermarket clamps. DeWalt slightly hosed-the-pooch on this one, and their T-slot has too narrow of a throat for a standard bar to fit, but otherwise it is similar. For the Bosch, however, the leg must be very thin, and is completely proprietary. So you cannot use any existing clamps that you already own with your Bosch rails.

[Will Blick]

> are trying to resolve a problem that really doesn't exist.

Really? Never? Did you read the posts? I think we have all characterized the slight shortcoming very fairly...and by you discounting it, IMO is a dis service to newbs to the Festool rail system. The big issue is not whether you need a Beverley or not....we all agree you can set the rails straight without one...although the Beverley makes the job a bit easier and prevents the rails from going non straight when flipping over, to tighten connector screws.....but that's a secondary issue...the primary issue you turned a blind eye to (even though it was mentioned several times) is how the joined rails can loose straightness from being banged around, or set down too hard. Like most problems that can occur, u never think much about it, TILL IT HAPPENS TO YOU. And just because something did not happen to one user, does NOT assure it should not happen to all users! There is variance in how hard the screws are set, how hard the rails get banged around, etc. I feel Toms suggestion was a good one... i.e. a system of joining that is better suited to BOTH creating straightness and more importantly maintaining straightness. In my eyes, it's a common sense product improvement....not mandatory, but surely a welcomed improvement. Julie was simply wondering if the other systems better accomplished these tasks, and whether they would be Festool compatible. If I was not sooo knee deep with Festool Rails, I would be curious of the same...

Bottom line, I am starting to think you have Green Blood

[Rick Christopherson]

Bottom line, I am starting to think you have Green Blood

No. I could care less what tools you buy or use in your shop. It doesn't line my pockets either way. But as an engineer, it does bother me to see poeple getting sucked into misinformation. If you want to chase down that rabbit hole, that is your decision to make, and I have simply provided you with the information to assist in making that decision. You are free to take or ignore that information as you see fit.

[John A langley]

It seems to me that we are beating a dead horse. First off, why would you want to buy one brand of saw and mother brand rails? It sounds to me like asking for trouble. There is not a tool or system out there that does not have its drawbacks or its positive sides. I have a limited amount of Festool equipment and it does what I expect it to do. Just like safety is the end users responsibility so is using and understanding our equipment to get the most out of it. After all we are working with wood not building a space shuttle.

[Julie Moriarty]

Rick, I don't want to get into a big debate on this but I have read more posts from owners of Festool rails that said the connector issue is very real than I have saying it isn't. So you describing this as "a problem that really doesn't exist" is opinion, not fact. There are too many who disagree with you.

This whole thing started for me when I was contemplating purchasing the TS 55 REQ. I happened across some reviews on the Festool connectors, and they weren't very good. So I took the questions to FOG in hopes of gaining better knowledge. A lot of members there said they have problems just like some here have posted. So the problem seems very real, at least from where I'm sitting. I will soon know first hand.

I also think you've done Bosch (and Mafell, as in guilt by association) a disservice assuming their connector is plastic. You know what they say about ASSUME.

Now if you have some foolproof method for joining the rails in such a way that they won't come out of alignment either during the tightening of the connector screws or in the process of normal work flow, without handling them with kid gloves, please share that knowledge. I think it would be much appreciated.

[Steve Keathley]

It seems to me that we are beating a dead horse. First off, why would you want to buy one brand of saw and mother brand rails? It sounds to me like asking for trouble. There is not a tool or system out there that does not have its drawbacks or its positive sides. I have a limited amount of Festool equipment and it does what I expect it to do. Just like safety is the end users responsibility so is using and understanding our equipment to get the most out of it. After all we are working with wood not building a space shuttle.

That's very well said. We are dealing with a medium that is subject to expansion, contraction, and warping.

As I posted earlier, I have the Dewalt system. I know Dewalt is not in Festool's class, but it works extremely well, even when joining rails.

Track saws are a great tool and there are some really good ones out there. Get one and use it for what it's good at. Don't try to make it something that its not. Just my .02.

[Mike Goetzke]

No. I could care less what tools you buy or use in your shop. It doesn't line my pockets either way. But as an engineer, it does bother me to see poeple getting sucked into misinformation. If you want to chase down that rabbit hole, that is your decision to make, and I have simply provided you with the information to assist in making that decision. You are free to take or ignore that information as you see fit.

To help me out Rick have you ever been compensated by Festool in any way? (edited - sorry, I think anyone that has affiliation with or has been compensated by any of the manufacturers mentioned here should mention so before posting.)

Thanks