Newbie with two tone coloring questions.

[Boris Gel]

Hi gang, total newbie here. I’m working on a small sewing machine frame that I’d like to make from a block of maple burl wood


http://i44.tinypic.com/jg2y3r.jpg

Here is the final shape I’d like to achieve:


http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2zi99ck&s=5

http://i42.tinypic.com/2zi99ck.jpg

You can zoom into it

As you can see it’s a two tone black and red wine finish.

Few things


1) I would like to do the staining as my final stage so I don’t have to do any ruff sanding after or between each color, the corners are so intricate so I’m afraid to change the shape of it, the only sanding I would consider is fine grit and then final polishing.
2) Bigger problem is I want this color combo to last at least 10 -15 years without fading or having to restain it, yet I’d like to keep it as natural looking and feeling as possible so no acrylic suggestions please.
3) Because the shape is so small it will be critical in separating the two colors since the grain would not show as much as on such a small surface compared to a larger surface piece of wood, so I need to somehow have a distinct two tone

I guess the question is how do I archive these things I’m even willing to consider the possibility of using vacuum chamber and submersing the piece in liquid dyes under pressure overnight so it penetrates it very deep maybe this will solve the fading issue, but how do I do it with two tones?

Another thing I’ve read that only metal complex dyes are permanent – is it my only choice?

Last question is about BLO, it seems that people say it will darken the wood with time, is it possible maybe to stain it in such a way so I can predict the darkening color over the years? So maybe I will start out not black and red wine but something else, and it will eventually get to that two tone color?


Would love to get answers with pictures of before and after so I can see the results of each process some of you wil suggest, especially if someone has some two tone piece they have done many years a go and never had to retouch it.


Sorry for such a bombardment of questions as my first post, but have to start somewhere.

Cheers

[John TenEyck]

I think that black/red combination was achieved using a red dye, nothing more. The burl wood absorbs more dye in some areas than others. Where it absorbs more it's very dark; where it absorbs less it's not as dark. Water soluble dyes, like Transfast, are the most light stable. Take some scrap and give it whirl. Note that the wood will look pretty bland after dying, but it will really pop after you apply your topcoats. I would suggest lacquer, either WB or OB, as you choose.

If you want to accentuate the red/black even more, I think you would first dye the whole thing black, then sand it with 325 grit. That will remove much of the dye on the harder wood areas but not the softer. Then dye it red.

John

[Boris Gel]

John do you think I can achieve that look with one single color, how dark it will get in the pores if I used a dark red mahogany color?

What about using some type of finish which will darken the wood over time, like BLO or some other type? So basically when it tries to fade over time the darkening will offset it a little and do I need to mix in the dye into the finishing solution as well?

My biggest issue is how long will water based dye last is it 5 years, 10 years or longer? I don’t wan to use lacier as my final finish I want something less synthetic so you can feel the wood with your hand yet it’s protection enough for many years, so I’m not sure if Danish oil, or BLO or something else would work I need to consider the fading into the equation.

Cheers

[John TenEyck]

I don't know if you can get the look you want with just one color, or how dark it will get in the pores. Only samples will tell you the answers you seek. But I can tell you with some confidence that if your burl is anything like the picture you posted there will be dramatic difference in color between the soft and hard areas.

Water based dyes are VERY light stable. I think they are the most light stable dyes you can buy. I would not use BLO with the intention that it will darken and offset fading of the dye. Even if the BLO did darken with time, and I don't know that it actually does, how would you know that it would happen at the same rate the dye faded or be the correct color? Wishful thinking.

As long as this piece does not sit in direct sunlight don't worry about the dye fading for a very, very long time, like decades. If you don't like lacquer then I would recommend a wiping varnish. I really like Arm-R-Seal because it is very pale in color, but there are many others. Pratt and Lambert #38 is very well regarded and not too dark; Waterlox is also well respected but much darker. Danish Oil, BLO, and similar oil products will offer no real protection and are, IMO, a waste of time/money as a topcoat.

If you are really hung up on light fading, then use a topcoat that has UV stabilizers built into it. The one I use is GF's Hi Perf. Poly. I believe GF's Enduro Clear Poly also has a good UV package in it, as does one of Sherwin Williams WB topcoats. However, all of these products are film formers and will not give you that close to the wood feel you want.

John

[Boris Gel]

After some experimenting I was able to achieve the color I wanted with one tone well I mixed two water based dyes from lee valley in one container:

Brilliant Crimson Aniline

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...at=1,190,42942

And a touch of Ebony Black

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...at=1,190,42942

I’ll let it sit for a day or two to see if it needs more staining or not.

Do you know how does the quality of these unknown brands from LV compare to the Transfast stuff?

Now comes the dilemma where most of the products you suggested to protect from UV will not give me a close feel to the wood, is there something in between, I’m willing to compromise a little on the UV protection for better feel.


Cheers

[John TenEyck]

Good deal on getting your colors. But you can't judge the final color until you put your topcoats on; where it looks bland now it will really pop and darken when you put your topcoat on.

I don't know what dyes LV sells, but most of their stuff is top shelf so I would think their dyes are high quality.

Really, unless you are planning to put this thing in direct sunlight, all day, every day, you are over thinking the UV protection aspect. Use a good quality wipe on varnish and I think you will be very pleased. If you only apply 3 to 5 coats you will have a very nice well protected but close to the wood finish. You can rub it with 0000 steel wool after a week or two if you want a super smooth satin sheen. Then apply a coat of paste wax if you want to bring up the sheen a little, and if you aren't happy I'll be very surprised.

John

[Boris Gel]

When you say top coat will darken it more, if I use a clear colored finish will it still darken it? Second question is do I need to seal the dye with something like shellac spray or something else so when I start rubbing the final finish it will not smudge the stain and it wont mix up with the finish.

Cheers

[Pete McMahon]

[QUOTE

I don't know what dyes LV sells, but most of their stuff is top shelf so I would think their dyes are high quality.

John, Lee Valley's dyes are repackaged W.D. Lockwood dyes so yes their dye line is top notch. Color names are all the same too. Lockwood also has a full line of acid complex dyes, the same type of dyes in TransTint. Been using their dyes for years and have never been disappointed.

[John TenEyck]

When you say top coat will darken it more, if I use a clear colored finish will it still darken it? Second question is do I need to seal the dye with something like shellac spray or something else so when I start rubbing the final finish it will not smudge the stain and it wont mix up with the finish.

Cheers

Boris, you are making samples, right? Those will answer most of your questions; learning from your mistakes is a great teacher - I should know.

Yes, a clear finish will darken the color of the wood if the wood itself is dark. Wipe a piece of cherry or walnut with mineral spirits and you will see what I mean. The effect is much less on light colored woods, but your dyed piece should darken considerably since the dye you used is dark.

If your dye is water soluble only and you use a solvent based finish you do not need to seal the dye in first. I have never used Lockwood's dyes so I'm not sure, but I think they are soluble only in water so you would not need to seal first. But again, that's what making samples are all about.

John

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for the info. Pete. I use Transtint dyes and like them so much that I've never felt the need to try others. I especially like that Transtint is alcohol soluble, which lets me avoid grain raising issues with woods like oak. I also use Transtint a lot as part of a toner package, mostly with shellac but sometimes added to my WB topcoat. I've even colored epoxy with them. They are incredibly versatile.

John