How to make this 36" radius profile...

[Michael Dunn]

so what's the vig for all the forum members who are contributing their experience and ideas to your for profit commercial venture?

What does vig mean?

[Mel Fulks]

Michael ,I see some validity and value in the criticisms. But I remember you are injured and need some 'light work'.Some guys have real talent for being a GC even dealing with trades they are not skilled in. Don't worry what a fair price is ,get solid detailed sub quote ,price it to make money. Good luck.

[Michael Dunn]

Michael ,I see some validity and value in the criticisms. But I remember you are injured and need some 'light work'.Some guys have real talent for being a GC even dealing with trades they are not skilled in. Don't worry what a fair price is ,get solid detailed sub quote ,price it to make money. Good luck.

Actually, my ankle is fine now. I took the partial cast off last Wednesday evening. It's much better. Just a bit of soreness. The ortho said it is most likely only a sprain.

The bruising is almost gone.

[Jeff Duncan]

I haven't finished my coffee yet so forgive me if I've missed it, but I still don't think we've seen a full description of the work involved? So far I believe your running a length of straight bar rail along with the curved returns on the ends? Are you also making the 2" thick bar top itself? How wide is that part of the bar? Is there the standard recessed tray on the inside edge of the top? What about the underlayment for the top? At such a tall profile you'll have to have the top glued but the bottom will have to float somehow to deal with movement. How are the seams going to be handled....assembled on site, or will the entire top be fabricated as a unit and delivered on a flat bed? I don't like to ball park too much without knowing what's being made.

The last bar top I had come in I sent to another guy down the road as I didn't have the time or space to make it. It was a basic L-shaped mahogany bar using standard bar rail and IIRC maybe a total of 25'. He bid it out at $5k. Different market though and if I had the time I probably could have done it a hair cheaper. What your bidding, (or what I think your bidding), is much more complicated and time consuming to pull off. So no, I'm not saying you should bid $7-$8k for this, I'm saying if it were in my market that's in the neighborhood of where you would be....maybe higher? I'd estimate how long you think it will take to build it, then double that number. You'll probably still come up short, but you may not lose your shirt As far as the install......my only advice is to avoid it. I still install most of what I produce and it's the one place where I consistently lose money

good luck,
JeffD

[Michael Dunn]

Here are some crude drawings... I am only doing the 3 piece rail at approximately 42 LF. The bar top is already built. Quite crudely I might add. The 'radius' is actually more of an ellipse. There are two curved corners.

I found some prices online. A Millwork place in Peoria, IL charges $332 for a CNC machined curved molding at. 6" radius. Mine is approximately a 24" radius. I put $650/ea for my handmade curved molding. The same place charges $21/LF for straight molding in Red Oak. A much smaller profile and is only one piece. My top piece is about 3" wide and the face profile is 5". Then there is the 7" connector piece that goes back to the bar structure.

I quoted $50/LF for the strait runs. I haven't sent the estimate yet. I'm still doing some homework. After I stallion, cutter charge, setup charge, etc... I'm just under $7k. Not staining or clear coating. I'll do it, but this estimate does not include it.

[Art Mann]

Hey Michael,

Let me recommend you download a free copy of Sketchup and take some time to learn to use it (if you haven't already). The design of this type of work just cries out for a computer model that will let you determine exactly what the radius of the pieces ought to be. You will end up with an accurate drawing you can send to a millwork place if you need to do that.

[Michael Dunn]

Hey Michael,

Let me recommend you download a free copy of Sketchup and take some time to learn to use it (if you haven't already). The design of this type of work just cries out for a computer model that will let you determine exactly what the radius of the pieces ought to be. You will end up with an accurate drawing you can send to a millwork place if you need to do that.

I know... I've known of SketchUp for a few years. I have it already. I just haven't taken the time to learn how to use it. I think the time is now.

That being said, the radius (well, ellipse actually...) has already been cut. Not by me.

I sent a rough drawing to a Millwork place earlier today. Letting him know I'm merely looking for assistance in pricing a job. He's working something up right now.

SketchUp here I come.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,you need some good drawings. If you sub the making of the rail the drawings and contract should state that the elliptical sections must follow a full size template you provide. Nothing dumber ,and more unnecessary than a conversation about who drew it right and who drew it wrong.

[Peter Quinn]

Did you call Bernie at curved moldings? He really does specialize in this sort if thing, ships world wide, quotes quickly, does all manner of custom work. Far as I'm concerned you owe it to yourself and your client to at least know the opportunity cost of having it done by a specialist. Just my .02. If work is scarce or this really really interests you I'm not one to say refuse jobs or be quick to turn it over to subs, and I've been where your taking on something new and not quite sure what to charge. Just like real estate agents, you get a starting place with comps.

I haven't revisited the how because unless I've missed something I still have no idea what machines you have to work with other than a wood master, and I don't see that doing everything required for this operation. At some point you need to be running a radius and approaching it from the edge, layered or not, and a wood master is a planer, not an edge shaper. Plus you have an inside radius to get the rabbit, an outside radius to get the mold, two different segments. This is not entry level work and should be compensated accordingly. But does the customer owe you an education? That's the question I always ask myself when pricing new work.

[Michael Dunn]

Did you call Bernie at curved moldings? He really does specialize in this sort if thing, ships world wide, quotes quickly, does all manner of custom work. Far as I'm concerned you owe it to yourself and your client to at least know the opportunity cost of having it done by a specialist. Just my .02. If work is scarce or this really really interests you I'm not one to say refuse jobs or be quick to turn it over to subs, and I've been where your taking on something new and not quite sure what to charge. Just like real estate agents, you get a starting place with comps.

I haven't revisited the how because unless I've missed something I still have no idea what machines you have to work with other than a wood master, and I don't see that doing everything required for this operation. At some point you need to be running a radius and approaching it from the edge, layered or not, and a wood master is a planer, not an edge shaper. Plus you have an inside radius to get the rabbit, an outside radius to get the mold, two different segments. This is not entry level work and should be compensated accordingly. But does the customer owe you an education? That's the question I always ask myself when pricing new work.

I did call Bernie. He's working on a quote now.

I do find this incredibly interesting. I also firmly believe that I can do it. Just because its difficult and time consuming, and I've never done it before doesn't mean I can't do it. As a matter of fact, everything I've done with my business this year has been a first. Cedar chest, floating shelves, table tops, and custom closets. All have been a learning experience for sure, but still made a profit. I'm not getting defensive (I think...) I'm just explaining a bit about me. I'm quite persistent, and determined.

I know a good amount about a lot of things. I know what I know and I know what I don't know. In other words, I know where my knowledge is lacking. Even then, I typically know where to go (usually google or SMC...) to find out what I'm missing. I'm not one to give up and I'm almost always up for a good challenge. Sometimes to a fault admittedly.

Please don't take my explanation of myself as though I felt attacked by you. I did not. Just some insight on me.

Thanx!

If I have to make a template and flush trim route the rabbet, that is fine.

[Jeff Duncan]

How well do you know this client? The more details I learn about this project the less I like it! Someone started the job who sounds like was possibly over their head, and now your being called in to clean up the mess What happened to the first guy? Was it money related? My gut feeling says don't spend too much more time on this quote as it's quite likely the client gets sticker shock! Even if they don't I'd have to be fairly comfortable with the reason I was called in on this type of situation.

It sounds like your still in the beginning stages of your career? I know what it's like to be starting out and looking to do whatever comes my way to pay the bills. However I also know when something smells bad at the beginning, and I've learned to trust my intuition on these things

good luck....and C.Y.A.
JeffD

[Michael Dunn]

Jeff,

I don't know him at all. Should I ask some more questions about why the bar builder didn't also do the rail?

Thanx for the advice!

[Jeff Duncan]

I would! At this stage in my career I would have asked a lot of questions right at the first phone call and/or meeting. I've had very good experiences jumping in where another shop couldn't complete a project for whatever reason. I've also had some I walked away from and never looked back. I've been told by several guys older and more experienced than myself to always go with what your gut tells you....so far it's worked well for me.

A typical job like this gets bid out as a whole, through the contractor/architect whoever is coordinating the project. Occasionally if it's a smaller restaurant/bar etc the owner in an attempt to save $$ acts as the GC, (always fun), and may be the one obtaining bids and hiring. I'm going to throw out a WAG this is your scenario? It's not usual practice to have someone build part of the bar in place and then try to figure out who's going to finish building it, installing it, finishing it etc., etc.. The tricky part is finding out what happened and why! There may be a perfectly safe and legit reason why your being brought in mid-way through. That's something that I can't help you with though. You'll have to feel your way through this and make sure your comfortable with everything before jumping in.

JeffD

[bobby milam]

What does vig mean?

Means their cut.

That's why forums are here. I'm glad to see so many willing to give advise and info to someone new in the business. That's what makes the world go around.

[Glenn Ancona]

Anytime we have worked on bar projects we are usually picking up the pieces of people who owe a bar tab or similar clowns who got in and couldn't deliver on their promises after having a few - Hey, its the bar business ! Coming in 1/2 way thru on someone else's work my only advice is ....T & M !!! If your fair and truly feel you can pull this off you cant lose. If they agree to go that route and you cant deliver - tell them. All of our work- and I mean all of it is T&M. It has always worked vey well for both party's involved.