Sharpening question,

[Rick Fisher]

Any progress I have made in sharpening has been self taught after reading here. The recent sharpening thread was insightful to me, they always are ..

I use a Veritas jig for chisels and plane blades, my reason for not free hand sharpening is that I cant seem to repeat the same angle over and over ..

Anyway .. lately I have been sharpening the entire bevel.. Basically polishing it up to 13000 (sigma) and then stropping it.. Afterwards I do a micro bevel with only the 13,000 grit stone and the strop..

This is as sharp as i have gotten to date, but I know it could be better..

The micro bevel I create that way is microscopic. I ensure that the back is flat and the sharpening process leaves a burr after each stone.. but for some reason, I cant ever seem to really nail it ..

People talk about being able to shave with a chisel or plane blade.. I could do it but would have a few dozen blood soaked toilet paper spots on my face ..

I would love to take a class.. Or sharpen a chisel in front of some old timer, who could say ... " hey ! what was that ! " .. or give pointers..

Would love some videos or similar to watch..

[Steve Friedman]

There are lots of YouTube videos - I like the ones by Deneb at Lie-Nielsen. But, I think there's any easy fix - stop stropping after the 13000 stone! In my opinion, anything you do after the 13000 Sigma stone (except maybe Chris' hand stropping) will make your edge duller.

Steve

[David Weaver]

Any progress I have made in sharpening has been self taught after reading here. The recent sharpening thread was insightful to me, they always are ..

I use a Veritas jig for chisels and plane blades, my reason for not free hand sharpening is that I cant seem to repeat the same angle over and over ..

Anyway .. lately I have been sharpening the entire bevel.. Basically polishing it up to 13000 (sigma) and then stropping it.. Afterwards I do a micro bevel with only the 13,000 grit stone and the strop..

This is as sharp as i have gotten to date, but I know it could be better..

The micro bevel I create that way is microscopic. I ensure that the back is flat and the sharpening process leaves a burr after each stone.. but for some reason, I cant ever seem to really nail it ..

People talk about being able to shave with a chisel or plane blade.. I could do it but would have a few dozen blood soaked toilet paper spots on my face ..

I would love to take a class.. Or sharpen a chisel in front of some old timer, who could say ... " hey ! what was that ! " .. or give pointers..

Would love some videos or similar to watch..

Rick, there are only two things to be concerned with:
* the angle (geometry)
* uniform polish on both sides (and the level of polish)

Plane irons generally last best around 30 degrees or slightly higher. I know this has been a point of contention among some, but I have seen documentation this is true (and experience of the same) and no documentation stating less is as good for actual wear.

If you are around 30-32 degrees and you have a uniform polish all the way to the edge with the stones, there isn't much more magic to be had.

Shaving hair is one thing, shaving it effortlessly without having the edge touching your skin is another, and the latter is really what you'd want were you to shave your face.

I have used just about every synthetic stone there is short of the gokumyo that stu sells (but I have used the 30k shapton) and there is no synthetic stone that I use that I like the shave off of, so if you couldn't comfortably shave your face with your sharpened iron, it's of no consequence. Every razor a barber ever used off of a much less fine coticule or escher hone, but that traveled to the linen and strop after that is much sharper than you'll get off of any synthetic stone.

If you get better results with the honing guide, then definitely do what makes you happy, especially when it comes to smoother plane irons and block planes, etc. I agree, the job that you do with a guide is more consistent. The job I do with a guide is more consistent, that's the nature of guides. I still use an eclipse on my finest set smoothers that I expect to not sand after and I expect to not see any tool marks from them, the guide makes the geometry more consistent.

At any rate, I thought the same thing you might be thinking when I first started sharpening. My very first edge was made after watching the charlesworth video twice. It was an excellent edge, and I was sure that there must be a secret i didn't know. That wasn't the case. I had the same thought when I started shaving, and I bought a razor that was "professionally honed", only to find out it was significantly less sharp than my daily shaver.

There's no big secret to the fine edge, just experience in getting it fast and every time without having to check it over. If you can shave hair pretty cleanly off of your arm, you're where you need to be, and you can adjust your geometry according to task after that. There's certainly nothing wrong with microbevels and ruler tricks, etc.

[Jim Matthews]

Watch this video from Paul Sellers. Listen closely at 1:35 on...

If you're polishing the entire bevel on a chisel or plane blade, you're half way there.
It bears mentioning that you've got to bear down with considerable force to do it this quickly.

For this method to work, you've got to create a significant burr.
This presumes the back of the blade is flat, not "back beveled" as with the ruler trick (which also works).

I find it works best to have the bench height at belt level.
Higher and I can't lean in sufficiently, lower and the angle becomes too steep to cut well.

There are MANY other effective methods.
This is the one the works for me.

[Derek Cohen]

Anyway .. lately I have been sharpening the entire bevel.. Basically polishing it up to 13000 (sigma) and then stropping it.. Afterwards I do a micro bevel with only the 13,000 grit stone and the strop..

Hi Rick

You know you have mastered sharpening when (1) the results are predictable (you no longer need to check the edge - you just know it is sharp), and (2) the method is efficient (that is, you have pared the steps back as far as they can go).

Methods differ but one aspect I must point out - your's is not efficient. There is absolutely no gain in working the whole bevel, and then adding a micro bevel. Wasted effort. Do one or the other only.

Results are predictable when you ensure that the coarsest stone creates a wire edge to the back of the blade, and that subsequent stones polish out all scratches. Front and back. It is not rocket science. It is just a thorough procedure.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Voigt]

People talk about being able to shave with a chisel or plane blade.. I could do it but would have a few dozen blood soaked toilet paper spots on my face ..

As Dave suggests, i wouldn't worry about shaving with a plane blade or chisel--it's a poor way to test for sharpness. For the most part, i just use the blade on whatever I'm making. However, if you want a test, the best one imo, which i got from Peter Galbert's blog, is to cut pine end grain. Lately, i've been keeping a scrap of pine on the bench just for this purpose. I do it because it holds me to a higher standard than what I'm usually working on. If you can cut pine end grain, you can cut almost anything.

[Harold Burrell]

However, if you want a test, the best one imo, which i got from Peter Galbert's blog, is to cut pine end grain. Lately, i've been keeping a scrap of pine on the bench just for this purpose. I do it because it holds me to a higher standard than what I'm usually working on. If you can cut pine end grain, you can cut almost anything.

Yeah, I've heard this too. But just how easily should it cut the end grain??? I mean, I can "cut" end grain with a screw driver.

[Don Dorn]

I too use Paul Sellers method. The reason is that you jettison the jig and don't have to be perfect on the angle as any error at the end of the stroke is what creates the convex bevel. The more I do it, the faster it goes and as Derek said - I don't test anymore, just put it back to work. My stones are on a lower table on the left edge of the bench, but it's dedicated so there is nothing to set up.

The convex bevel didn't really make sense in that it's the back of the blade that does the work so what difference does it make? However, I think it adds strength to the cutting edge as my irons sure seem to stay sharp longer. I can't say that the actual edge is sharper than when I used a jig and a secondary bevel, but this method sure goes faster and is just as sharp.

[Steve Voigt]

Yeah, I've heard this too. But just how easily should it cut the end grain??? I mean, I can "cut" end grain with a screw driver.

The test is, can you pull wide shavings and leave a nice surface. It's a good test, because unlike shaving hair, you see what happens when the blade meets real resistance. If the blade isn't super sharp, it will skip and chatter.
Often, i flunk this test, but i just keep going, because my blade doesn't actually need to be this sharp to do what i need to do. Lately, i've been using the drawknife almost exclusively, and the knife rips through green wh. oak, even though it does a less than great job on the dry pine end grain. So, the test is kind of an aspirational thing; i take note of how well i do, resolve to do better next time, and keep working.

[Jim Koepke]

Yeah, I've heard this too. But just how easily should it cut the end grain??? I mean, I can "cut" end grain with a screw driver.

For me, the end grain of pine test is more about being able to shear off a very thin shaving without pushing over the fibers.

Pine is a soft wood with fiber structure that is very easy to bend and fracture. If a blade is not sharp it is more likely to distort parts of the pine it isn't cutting.

A screwdriver that hasn't been sharpened can break or push end grain, but it will not take a smooth controlled shaving.

jtk

[Dave Parkis]

I also use the Veritas jig for the same reason you do. I'd suggest not honing the entire bevel past 1000 grit. I hone a 25 degree bevel up to 1000 grit and then switch to 30 degrees for the 6000 and 13000 grit stones. This gives me a secondary bevel that's visible and easy to touch up as I go along.

[Adam Cruea]

I don't follow the "does it shave hair" belief either.

Take a sheet of paper and push the blade straight into the edge with no back and forth motion. Does it slice the paper? If so, it's sufficiently sharp. If not, you could probably sharpen more.

My routine is hit my Sigma 1000, 6000, 10000, then take it to an unloaded leather strop. Some of the worst edges I've gotten are actually with a charged strop (which I'm guessing is something I'm doing wrong, but hey).

Also, someone mentioned "considerable pressure". . .I've noticed this only applied to the Sigmas I got from Stu. If I used the same pressure on my Norton's, I would probably shatter them and I doubt they would last.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't follow the "does it shave hair" belief either.

Take a sheet of paper and push the blade straight into the edge with no back and forth motion. Does it slice the paper? If so, it's sufficiently sharp. If not, you could probably sharpen more.

My routine is hit my Sigma 1000, 6000, 10000, then take it to an unloaded leather strop. Some of the worst edges I've gotten are actually with a charged strop (which I'm guessing is something I'm doing wrong, but hey).

Also, someone mentioned "considerable pressure". . .I've noticed this only applied to the Sigmas I got from Stu. If I used the same pressure on my Norton's, I would probably shatter them and I doubt they would last.

Like so many other things; methods of sharpening, degree of bevels, secondary bevels, convex bevels, ways to test the edge all come down to what satisfies the individual needs of the person doing the work.

The ultimate test of a blade's edge is in the work it does for the person using it. In my best tuned smoothers a freshly sharpened blade should be able to cut a shaving of 0.001" or a little less.

The surface left behind by a plane, or chisel, will let you know if there are any nicks in the blade's edge.

A blade does not have to be super sharp to be able to shave some arm hair. In my opinion, there is as much technique involved as there is sharpness. I have thought about shaving my face with a plane blade, but have never tried it. A blade that can remove arm hair may not be able to cut a hanging hair. For me there are different levels of how well a blade shaves arm hair. Same for the hanging hair test. My feeling, having nothing to support it, is a blade at the top of shaving arm hair is at or below the bottom of cutting a hanging hair. Not sure of that.

Cutting paper can be a good test, but one must be aware of the weight of the paper and the humidity levels in the paper. A thin piece of receipt paper in a high humidity situation will be more difficult to cut than a crisp, dry sheet of 20# bond. This will indicate the degree of sharpness one has achieved. It tends to test a very small section of the bevel.

Sometimes before sharpening a blade I test it against a finger nail or even with a finger on the edge. I do not suggest this method. Testing the edge of a blade by feel is something I have done since my first pocket knife over 50 years ago. I haven't cut myself yet doing this. I do tend to have calluses on my finger tips. Many people use a fingernail on a blade's edge to find nicks. Also one can learn over time how sharp an edge is by how it feels against a finger nail. My suggestion is this test method isn't for nail biters.

With oil stones my experience has shown that one has to bear down a bit. With water stones this is likely to cause the edge to dig in and leave a divot on a push stroke.

On water stone my practice is to give the back of a blade a stroke or two mostly to get it moist. This helps me watch the action of the water on the back while the bevel is being honed. Watching the water flow on the back of the blade helps me to keep the bevel flat to the stone. The water movement changes slightly as a burr is developing.

There are a lot of different "tricks" among the methods of sharpening. Amazingly, almost all of them work. It is just a matter of finding the ones that work best for you and your tools.

I am not a big advocate of secondary bevels, but some of my blades have them. Not an advocate of cambering blades, but some of my blades are cambered. Neither am I one to champion the ruler trick, but some of my blades do get a little lift at the top when the back side is being rubbed on a stone. My preference, until it changes, is for a flat bevel. This is mostly because there currently isn't a grinder in my shop. However, at one time one of my blades did have more of a convex bevel, it worked fine.

So my advice to anyone struggling with getting to sharp is to keep it simple and get basic. If one hasn't removed all the nicks from an edge with their coarse stone, they are likely to still be there after the polishing stone. If an edge isn't sharp after working the primary bevel, it may be a lot to ask of a secondary bevel or ruler trick to correct the situation.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

However, if you want a test, the best one imo, which i got from Peter Galbert's blog, is to cut pine end grain. Lately, i've been keeping a scrap of pine on the bench just for this purpose. I do it because it holds me to a higher standard than what I'm usually working on. If you can cut pine end grain, you can cut almost anything.

+1 This is a consistent test, that has been used by several people attempting to teach me the rudiments of sharpening.
If the pine end grain looks "wet" when the blade passes, you're looking into the open end of the cells.

If it looks dusty, like flour or "furry" the blade isn't polished finely enough to shear the end grain cells - the edge isn't keen and the degree of polish isn't smaller than the cross section of end grain.

It's so simple, and there's not denying the accuracy.
If the blade can manage Pine end grain, the blade's ready.

[Jim Matthews]

Yeah, I've heard this too. But just how easily should it cut the end grain??? I mean, I can "cut" end grain with a screw driver.

When I get a chisel sharp enough, it glides across the surface. If I need to skew, sweep or otherwise manipulate the blade - it might do with more stropping.
I can only plane Pine end grain with my planes skewed. That's an indication to me that the larger blades aren't as finely finished as my chisels.

* sigh *

I once saw Phil Lowe swipe at a piece of end grain so fast I was sure the end would blow out.
No skew, no magical mystery tour - straight across.

That, with a plane I wouldn't have crossed the street to pull out of a trash can.