So how good is the PM-VII

[Gary Muto]

Every time I look at it, though, I have lines from Money for Nothing going through my head.

Same here...

[Jim Neeley]

"Rob, just a quick aside - do you take back the tool even if the buyer has already sharpened it? (That would surprise me, but I thought Id ask since youre here.)"

Whether or not they WILL do it, I question the fairness quotient unless it was being returned due to the failure of the freshly sharpened edge, a defect that didn't reveal itself until after sharpening or it failing to live up to a claim they've made.

I've heard of people going to places like HD, buying 4 or 5 routers with every intention of returning all of them except perhaps one. By the time the BBS handles the return the whole transaction is a major money-loser, through no fault of their own.

Others buy a tool, use it to do what they wanted to accomplish and then return it for full credit. These companies have very generous return policies in order to ensure people don't get screwed. People who abuse their generosity lead to those policies being change such that they may damage those with good intent.

In the early 90's our local Sears store (Anchorage) ended up putting up signs near their camcorders indicating that camcorders were expressly excluded from their "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money refunded" unless the item was defective. When buying a camcorder I inquired about the sign and was told Sears was selling record number of camcorders but that over 90% of them were coming back in a couple weeks, working fine but returned because the people "weren't satisfied" with them. The salesman confided that when they got the customers drivers license to process the return they were inevitably from out of state or country... tourists who bought one at the beginning of their vacation and returned it for full credit at the end.

I'm sure you're not of this type and hope you don't take offense.. they are what I call "bottom feeders", and that's being polite. <g>

Jim

[Ryan Griffey]

I'm sure the new LV chisels are great. But LV sells too much Chinese Junk for my liking. I put my money where my mouth is when it comes to USA products. LN gets my money.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I'm sure the new LV chisels are great. But LV sells too much Chinese Junk for my liking. I put my money where my mouth is when it comes to USA products. LN gets my money.

Well, LV is a retailer of tools (garden, kitchen and woodworking) and large percentage of reasonably affordable products made in China these days, it's hard not to carry Made in China items. LV and LN are not even in the same category as far as their business go. LN being a manufacturer that does direct sales, LV's main thing is in retail. Veritas tools being their R&D and production arm, the number of products produced under Veritas brand is small compare to the rest of inventory. Besides, if made in USA is your concern, then LV being a Canadian, that's already a strike out, isn't it?

[Tony Wilkins]

I was going to get one to try, especially with the customer service offered. I'm afraid however, since it's considered untoward to actually use that service, that I'm not going to be able to.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Why? Because someone wrote an example of people abusing the service to fulfill temporary needs? Come on, you know that's not the same as company offering "try our products!". If you are getting chisels just so you can use it and finish whatever you plan to do, but want money back because you are done with that said product, then yeah, I hope you won't make LV some sort of rental tool company at their expense. But with every intention to buy, and genuinely wanting to try the products, why should you think taking an advantage of such system is a bad thing?

[Tony Wilkins]

I guess I would just feel guilty if I didn't like it. I'm not sure I'd send it back even if I did. The comments just reinforced that.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I would too if I ever had to send anything back to LV. So far nothing ever gone back there from me. If you feel guilty, you can sell it here or on eBay. You might lose some money on the whole thing, at least you can do that without being guilty. But either way, you have your preference and needs dictated by health issues, I think you need to be extra diligent in getting your hands on tools to try. Like I said previously, no steel or material matter if it doesn't fit your needs.

[Danny Burns]

"Rob, just a quick aside - do you take back the tool even if the buyer has already sharpened it? (That would surprise me, but I thought Id ask since youre here.)"

Jim

http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/Hel...rnExchangeForm

The best customer service bar none.

"If, for any reason, you are not completely satisfied, just return your purchase within 3 months by ground mail. You can choose to either exchange the product or receive a complete refund (including our regular shipping charges); we will also refund your return parcel post costs at the ground mail rate. Returns can also be processed at any of our retail store locations."

As a customer after doing business with LV for over 29 years, not one single complaint about them .

[David Weaver]

LV offers that policy as a requirement, but I have seen Rob before mentioning that the cost of "sampling" via a return policy is extremely steep. I think they offer it because we demand it, but that doesn't mean we should abuse it because it drives up costs - especially when they start paying shipping both ways.

I have only seen two people say "try a few and keep the one you like", one is Joel from TFWW and the other is Alex Gilmore (who sells very expensive natural stones, and trial of them is a valuable thing since you can't really go to his shop if you're not local).

Today is the first time I've ever seen criticism of LV for selling too much Chinese stuff. Pretty much everything LN sells made in the US, LV also has made in the US or canada (or perhaps the UK). LN can sell mostly domestic manufacture stuff because their catalog is pretty limited.

[Chris Griggs]

LV offers that policy as a requirement, but I have seen Rob before mentioning that the cost of "sampling" via a return policy is extremely steep. I think they offer it because we demand it, but that doesn't mean we should abuse it because it drives up costs - especially when they start paying shipping both ways.

Indeed, they discourage "sampling" (Rob and Joel debated this once: found the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ho-knows/page2). I link to this because I think it really gives insight into how the retailer view their policies.

Of course, they'll take back even if one is sampling, but LVs policy is intended to be a "good faith" policy. As in they want you to buy it if you think its something you want but have some doubts, and are happy to take it back if it turns out its not for you. BUT, they would not want you too say buy an LN shoulder plane, an LV shoulder plane, and a Clifton shoulder plane, with the intent of only keeping one. Only the purchaser can decide if they are purchasing that tool in good faith. I've personally not met anyone who abused our little niche market's awesome return policys, but I'm sure their are people who do and like Dave said that drives up cost for everyone.

[Hilton Ralphs]

So the assumption is that all Chinese stuff is junk whilst anything they sell made in the USA is good?

Heck , sixty years ago Japan was a swear word but now their goods are revered. Freud from Italy, Wera from Germany, KI chisels from Japan, Narex chisels from the Czech Republic - all part of the Axis powers.

Makes you think.

[David Weaver]

The stuff that was exported to the US was junk. That's quite often the case with China, but there's definitely truth in the fact that there are quality good sold in China and made in China. Woodwell tool company is a perfect example. You can get a HSS iron plane made of ebony or some sort of asian tropical wood (Depending on what they have) cheaper than you can get either the western iron equivalent or a dry tropical 12/4 QS blank or rift sawn to make a plane. And they give you both and turn them into a plane.

My chinese diamond hones from Best sharpening are quality goods, but they cost almost the same as western goods.

I'm a fan of some chinese products. I'm not a fan of US retailers replacing US products with chinese products and leaving the price relatively unchanged (but LV doesn't do that. Their imported goods are inexpensive compared to the domestics).

[Peter Pedisich]

Lee-Valley has really done a terrific job, in my opinion, noting in their catalog when an item is made in Canada/USA or if it is imported. This is helpful as some prefer the domestic made stuff for the quality, and some for the boost to the domestic labor force. Can't ask for more than that, they offer a wide range of goods at fair prices, and give lots of clear info about them, and a terrific return policy.

[Niels Cosman]

FWIW: I've been using the 1", and 3/4" quite a bit for several weeks now and I have several initial impressions.

1:They appear to have superb edge retention, like 100% so far (chopping and pairing)
2: Fastest initial setup of any chisel I have ever bought new.
3: Design/erganomics are very good. Well balanced and very light. A great chisel for paring and cleaning up mortices. I still prefer the slightly shorter blade handle shape of my LN's for chopping.

Aesthetically I am not in love with them, but they bring the A-game in function and quality. They are total winners and I suspect they will become my go to general purpose set.