So how good is the PM-VII

[Tony Wilkins]

I ask this because it has just about swayed me on several things I need.

There's a lot of tools I need to fill in. My chisel quiver consists of 1/4" and 3/4" Blue Spruce bench, 6mm Massahige oire nomi (which I don't particularly like the feel of), and a 1/4" LN Sash Mortice (whose handle I love and really got me looking at the LN bench chisels).

I have and like wood bench planes but I want to give the more common metal body planes a try. Currently I have a non-stanley #5 that I've been trying to fix since the mail broke the handle. Figured out it wasn't a very good model to begin with.

So there's two opportunities to try the new steel. I know Rob is very active (and I invite him to chime in either by PM or on this thread). To be perfectly honest, before this steel I was leaning towards Lie Nielsen due to aesthetics and 'less innovative' designs.

Oh, and the next tool I'm saving up for is a large router plane and am still going back and forth between LN and LV.

So, should the PM-VII sway me ?

TIA,
Tony

[Sam Takeuchi]

Have you done search? There has been quite a few posts about the new Veritas chisels, reviews, opinions and steel. While I'm not saying not to make new post, but I think there are wealth of information already present and that you can gather information that answers your questions and more.

[Jim Koepke]

Are the blades for the LV router plane available in PM-VII?

We all have our own criteria to drive our decisions on which tools we buy and use. Mine is based on which tool feels best in my hands or how it makes me feel.

For instance, almost all of my bench planes are of the Bailey design. Of course there are better planes by other makers and even the Stanley Bedrock design has an advantage on the Bailey design. None of that matters to me as the look and feel of the Bailey design appeals to my senses. They also are some great planes for everyday use.

My suggestion would be to try and get a chance to handle each of the routers and see if one feels better in your hands than the other.

This advise is also the same when it comes to chisels.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

It depends on what's important to you. The PM-V11 steel appears to hold an edge longer than plain carbon steel or A2 steel, but you may find that the handle and balance of another brand of chisel suites you better. If so, you have to make a trade-off decision.

Mike

[Oh, and to address your issue on the large router plane, I like the LV router plane. But either will work well. I will advise strongly against the LN small router plane. It's very difficult to adjust and the screw holding the blade in place is difficult to get tight enough without a screwdriver. I had one, hated it, and sold it.]

[Let me add two comments about the LN chisels (I have a set of them). (1) While socket chisels have their advantages, the sockets on the LN chisels are too "perfect" and the handles don't stay in well. The older socket chisels have very rough sockets which tend to grab the handle and keep it in the socket. The LN socket is machined smooth. If you get the LN chisels you may have to add something to keep the handles in the sockets (people have suggested shellac - I used epoxy). It's irritating and dangerous to have a blade fall out when you lift the chisel by the handle. (2) I find the standard LN handles too small, and replaced all the handles on mine.]

[Chris Griggs]

It depends on what's important to you. The PM-V11 steel appears to hold an edge longer than plain carbon steel or A2 steel, but you may find that the handle and balance of another brand of chisel suites you better. If so, you have to make a trade-off decision.

Mike

[Oh, and to address your issue on the large router plane, I like the LV router plane. But either will work well. I will advise strongly against the LN small router plane. It's very difficult to adjust and the screw holding the blade in place is difficult to get tight enough without a screwdriver. I had one, hated it, and sold it.]

I pretty much would echo this exactly, and add that in addition PMV11 has more flexibility than A2 when it comes to sharpening angles. If you keep all your chisel at 30+ degrees that matters less, but if you want to keep one or two at 25 degrees the steel choice might be a bigger deal.

I guess I'd say if you find both comfortable the steel is probably a good deciding factor. I think both are very comfortable well-balanced chisels, but if you happened to find one very comfortable the other uncomfortable I think comfort would trump steel for me. You definitely want to own tools the feel good to use.

And oh yeah, I too LOVE my LV router plane, but like Mike said, either will work.

[Rob Lee]

Hi Tony -

The only thing I'll contribute here - is that anything you buy from us, and decide you don't like, can be returned and we refund your shipping. You can't really lose trying anything....

Cheers -

Rob
(who already "voted" for PM-V11 with a massive investment in R&D, and duplication of stock!)

[Tony Wilkins]

Thanks for the input. Sam, I did do the search and wanted to put my own little twist on it rather than resurrect one of those threads. I'm also asking at the same time about the ergonomics of the tools (especially planes). So I'll take this opportunity to throw this out - I'm trying to decide which bench plane to try - either the 5 1/4 or 6. Not to go too much into it but I came back from Iraq with a condition a lot like MS so some days I'm really weak and overall weaker than I should be. That's part of the reason I started in wood planes.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the input. Sam, I did do the search and wanted to put my own little twist on it rather than resurrect one of those threads. I'm also asking at the same time about the ergonomics of the tools (especially planes). So I'll take this opportunity to throw this out - I'm trying to decide which bench plane to try - either the 5 1/4 or 6. Not to go too much into it but I came back from Iraq with a condition a lot like MS so some days I'm really weak and overall weaker than I should be. That's part of the reason I started in wood planes.

Functionally I tend to use a 6 as small jointer, and since I'm not making dining tables and beds (or haven't yet) that means a 6 touches just about everything I do. I like 5 1/4's, but functionally they feel more like a smoother or small panel plane, generally I would feel that a 5 1/4 isn't the plane to straighten most things. So it depends on what you want to do. Smallish but very functional jointer No 6...long narrow smoother 5 1/4. The modern 6s do get pretty heavy though, not super heavy but they are pretty good sized chunks of steel, so you might do well to go vintage if you are concerned about the weight when your condition acts up. OR if you are happy with wood planes just stick with wood planes

(BTW: for the 5 1/4 I'm referring to the standard bailey sized one. I've never used the LV 5 1/4W so perhaps that's a different animal)

[Sam Takeuchi]

You are never going to get good answer for ergonomics, because it's so personal. Even if you didn't have any health issues, everyone would have different answer and you are not going to be even one step closer. I think you just have to try the tools before you can make your decision and Rob already said you can try their tools at no risk. You should take up on that kind of opportunities.

If you are thinking about Stanley #6, it's quite heavy. I would think Veritas #6 would be just as heavy, if not slightly more. Stanley 5-1/4 is an odd plane, blade being 1-3/4", it might be little too light duty if you want to use that for rough planing. LV 5-1/4W has a 2" blade, and personally I think it's more balanced as far as functionality goes. The thing about Veritas planes is that the handles are more upright than Stanley, Lie-Nielsen and others. Some people like it, some don't. You can't really make judgment call if you haven't touched it.

If ergonomics is a priority for you, then the steel doesn't matter. If you have health issues that prevents comfortable grip or activity using tools unless handle shapes are right for you, you are not going to benefit from characteristics of steel if it's not right for you. Personally I would recommend something like socket chisel where you can make and shape handles perfect for your own need.

[Charlie Stanford]

It depends on what's important to you. The PM-V11 steel appears to hold an edge longer than plain carbon steel or A2 steel, but you may find that the handle and balance of another brand of chisel suites you better. If so, you have to make a trade-off decision.

Mike

[Oh, and to address your issue on the large router plane, I like the LV router plane. But either will work well. I will advise strongly against the LN small router plane. It's very difficult to adjust and the screw holding the blade in place is difficult to get tight enough without a screwdriver. I had one, hated it, and sold it.]

[Let me add two comments about the LN chisels (I have a set of them). (1) While socket chisels have their advantages, the sockets on the LN chisels are too "perfect" and the handles don't stay in well. The older socket chisels have very rough sockets which tend to grab the handle and keep it in the socket. The LN socket is machined smooth. If you get the LN chisels you may have to add something to keep the handles in the sockets (people have suggested shellac - I used epoxy). It's irritating and dangerous to have a blade fall out when you lift the chisel by the handle. (2) I find the standard LN handles too small, and replaced all the handles on mine.]

They only hold an edge longer if kept at 30* or higher and not that much longer. They're choppers. It's that simple.

[Chris Griggs]

They only hold an edge longer if kept at 30* or higher and not that much longer. They're choppers. It's that simple.

Not in my experience or anyone else who has given them a fair evaluation. Mine holds significantly longer then good vintage steel at 25 degrees...and by good vintage steel I mean my two buck parers that I love and my Stanley 750 that has fantastic steel. I don't know about less than that (like 20) but it was immediately apparent to me that they hold much longer at 25. Not that that means the regular old HC steel isn't still good. I love the steel in my 750 and my bucks, but there is no question to me that the PMV11 is equally as fine and holds an edge longer at 25 degrees.

Anyway, Tony can either borrow mine or order one from LV at no risk and see for himself what is true.

[Mike Henderson]

Not in my experience or anyone else who has given them a fair evaluation. Mine holds significantly longer then good vintage steel at 25 degrees...and by good vintage steel I mean my two buck parers that I love and my Stanley 750 that has fantastic steel. I don't no about less than that (like 20) but it was immediately apparent to me that they hold much longer at 25. Not that that means the regular old HC steel isn't still good. I love the steel in my 750 and my bucks, but there is no question to me that the PMV11 is equally as fine and holds an edge longer at 25 degrees.

Anyway, I'm sending my 1" PMV11 chisel to Tony to try so he'll get to see for himself.

Charlie keeps repeating the same mantra that PM-V11 steel is no good but he has not offered any test results to back up his claims. I'm starting to think maybe he's just a troll on this subject, attempting to get people stirred up. He seems to have picked me for some reason. Every time I post about PM-V11 he jumps in and says the steel is no good.

Mike

[Chris Griggs]

Charlie keeps repeating the same mantra that PM-V11 steel is no good but he has not offered any test results to back up his claims. I'm starting to think maybe he's just a troll on this subject, attempting to get people stirred up. He seems to have picked me for some reason. Every time I post about PM-V11 he jumps in and says the steel is no good.

Mike

He jumps on anyone who says anything good about LV products, japanese tools, and any sharpening media other than arkansas stones or sandpaper. Its too bad too, because when he's not attempting to get a rise out of folks he actually gives really good advice, but you need to filter through the troll goo to find the good stuff. Be nice if he was able to share his experience without metaphorically defacating on anyone who approaches their woodworking hobby differently than he does. I'm tired of wading through troll droppings.

[David Weaver]

Derek proved that they work at 25 degrees just fine in stuff harder than anything we're likely to work short of hickory. It's not really much in question.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Nice facelift David!