May I be Nosey?

[Art Mann]

That is an application I hadn't thought about. Nice work!

[bobby milam]

Art, definitely go see cammaster if they are that close. You won't regret it even if you go another route. There are many shopbots out there and their users praise them too. You could get on their forum and find someone nearby to go see it in person. I've never seen the laguna so can't comment on them. If you have a Rocklers close by go see the shark demo. Seeing them in person will really help you appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of each. You might want the cammaster for it's solid build or you might like the shopbot because you might get a bigger table within your budget.


I do just fine with a 24x24 footprint but I am always wishing for more. Even if I don't need say a 4x8 table for one item, I can simultaneously cut several things at one time on it which would speed up my production time. Sounds like this will be for all 3 of you so you can justify the extra cost of a really good machine. I met the guys for both cammaster and shopbot and they seem to be good guys and will sell you on what their machines will do and not on bashing the others. I'm trying to figure out my budget right now to see what I can upgrade to. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

[Rich Fennessey]

Art, I think answering a few questions could guide you. These are some off top of my head.

1) Is this hobby or business?
2) Do you care about production time?
3) Do you want to be able to cut aluminum and harder woods? Large items too?
4) Why am I looking to buy a CNC?
5) Am I spending fun money or do I need this venture to pay for itself?

1) If this is a hobby then there is no hurry on getting a machine and required accessories. If you are starting a business, then expect a fair amount of effort getting it set up and figuring out products and services. This is easier if you have ran some type of business in the past. If this is business, then you will probably want a more capable/larger machine to be able to accept a larger variety of jobs.

2) Production time: I love having multiple tools available. Even with only 3 tools available to me at a time, it has been a big benefit when making items. It is a huge time saver, especially if you do any type of production. A vacuum table is another accessory that you may also want eventually.

3) You just want a heavier duty system if you want to be open to handle production type of cutting. Also, get biggest table practical. For quite a while, I didn't cut much over 2'x2'. Lately I've needed to put full 4'x8' sheets down and full length lumber. Also, larger table lets you keep a corner for projects while another one might be keeping a template laid down for another project. This weekend I need to cut a 4'x6' sign, definitely one of my bigger items to cut.

4) Business or hobby is a top level answer of why you might be getting a CNC. You may be inspired by beautiful furniture, 3D carvings, and signage. Figure out a general area that you want to go in to. This will help you determine power, size, configuration and software required. These machines are very flexible but can be complicated. Be willing to spend some significant time figuring out techniques. Holding down material is a whole subject area in itself.

5) There is different approach if you need to make money from this. Either way, you need to enjoy yourself while you work and learn. If you are only doing this to make money and you don't have a current business where a CNC machine would help, I'd recommend a different business venture. It will certainly help if you have done woodworking in the past and have other tools. If you spend $10K on a machine, expect to spend "at least" another 50% of that on accessories and infrastructure. If this is strictly a hobby and you are not sure you will be doing it a year from now, then I'd minimize expenses and get a small machine. I'd say no matter what a minimum you will be spending is $3K-$5K. If you are handy, you can consider building one but make sure that is a process you would enjoy and I wouldn't do it just for the cost savings.

Oh, BTW, my machine is listed in my signature block. I bought on the high side to cover what ever I wanted to do. I found the Camaster online forum to be a huge asset in my learning. I also think Shopbot has a great online support infrastructure. This is a side business of mine but also a new direction in my career. I'm an aspiring inventor and entrepreneur but work full time in information technology which pays well. I want the machine to pay for itself but it doesn't have to at this time. I also consider the CAD/CAM aspect of CNC to be an enhancement to my background as an engineer. So you see, the purchase of my CNC for me was not only about making things but about changing my career. I also really like computer graphics work and a CNC is great compliment to actually creating what is on the screen. I also evaluated lots of other type of machines before buying a CNC to include waterjets, laser engravers, cutters, welders, plasma cutters, and 3D printers.

[Art Mann]

Hi Rich,

Here is an aswer to your questions -- today. My desires and plans are evolving.

1) Is this hobby or business?

I started out looking for a hobby machine but the idea has evolved into a possible part time business.

2) Do you care about production time?

No - within reason. I am retired. Now, I would sacrifice machine time for lower machine cost. That could change.

3) Do you want to be able to cut aluminum and harder woods? Large items too?

Hard woods - certainly. Aluminum - maybe although it isn't a primary consideration. Large items - my desire for bigger grows the more research I do.

4) Why am I looking to buy a CNC?

I build keepsake and jewelry boxes for gifts and for sale. My original idea was to buy a machine to do relief carving and personalization for those. Since I started researching machinery, I have become aware of many, many other possible applications. In part, I started this thread to help answer that question.

5) Am I spending fun money or do I need this venture to pay for itself?

I am retired and do not need any additional income to live. I started out with an idea to buy a sophisticated woodworking toy. However, if I spend the money for something like a Shopbot Buddy or a Camaster Stinger, I would need to make at least some money to justify the purchase. As far as building my own goes, I have the skills to build one but I want to be sure that it will perform like a commercial unit - at least as far as precision goes.

Bobby,

I plan to visit Camaster the next time I go down to the farm for a few days. I have already seen a Carvewright demo though it was a while back and was not with the idea of buying one. I recently went to a Woodcraft Store and saw a demonstration of the General iCarve machine. (I was not impressed). I wish I knew someone who owned a Shopbot so I could check it out.

Once again, thank you all again for the highly useful comments!

[Keith Outten]

CAMaster and ShopBot both make good machines. My first was a ShopBot PRT Alpha and now I own a CAMaster Stinger. All of the CAMaster machines have welded frames which is a major detail for me for many reasons. Moving a welded frame machine is a snap, a bolted frame presents a different set of issues to deal with. Machining lithophanes or 2 and a half D stuff works better with a welded frame.

You can make plywood templates for carpet companies.
You can make plywood templates for plumbers, electrical and masonry companies.
You can engrave glass inserts for cabinet shops and machine details in cabinet doors.
You can make a sell cutting boards as a business in itself.
You can produce and sell all kinds of project kits.
Signs...my favorite

[Art Mann]

Hey Keith,

Thanks for the additional ideas. I noticed in a previous post that you work a lot with Corian. I had never thought of that as a medium. I went to your profile and looked at your photos and I would like to see more if you have the time. Do you have a web page? Someone mentioned Versatex as a medium. That also sounds like a sounds like an interesting medium to try.

[Jerome Stanek]

Here are 2 lithos I did on my shopbot the left one is corian and the right one is acrylic. There are a lot of lithos made on the Shark and other units that are not welded.

[Keith Outten]

Art,

When I started making signs I found out that there are sign companies on every corner so I decided that my new sign business had to have something unique to offer potential customers. I was friendly with a local husband and wife team that ran a counter top shop and they offered me some of their Corian drops to experiment with and when I got my ShopBot my production went through the roof. As luck would have it I had a very big commercial sign job in process so I made some Corian samples and the customer loved them. They started ordering more and more Corian signs so my work-list got longer every day in spite of my increased production using the ShopBot. This is the job that paid for my new ShopBot in one week. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time.

Corian is solid gold to my business. I have found out through the years that Corian is a versatile material that has a very high perception of value with customers. It also has the lowest cost of ownership for customers of any material I have ever used and my labor costs are less which offsets the cost of the material.

When I was working for CNU running the sign shop I had more work than you could imagine both at work and at home in my sign shop. I retired last February so I decided that now is the time to put up a new web site so I hired a professional marketing pro/designer I have known for ten years to help me put something together. We have been working on the web site for weeks now and should release the site in another week.

I have a 23" wide by 27.75" tall Corian sign for the Abingdon Fire Department to install today and then a similar design to make for Saint Mary's School before I start on another business directory for a local Insurance company that should be pretty sweet. I spent a lot of time and money over the last two months working on my shop upgrading and purchasing new machines, getting ready for the next round of sign jobs. Now that I am full time in my shop again my goal is to get a bit more organized than I have been in the past. In spite of my concentrated effort to setup the new machines I have had an almost constant stream of ADA sample requests so I have had to keep that going along with the shop upgrades. Trotec Laser has asked me to produce several ADA signs for their advertising and trade show events, they will be completed this week.

I'm still a rookie operator, most of my work is simple flat style signs but it pays well and I like the work. I ordered my Stinger II with a CNC Lathe three years ago and I haven't had the time to use the lathe to this day. Once my shop is where I want it to be I hope to be able to take a short break and spend some time learning to use the CNC Lathe so I can start offering some new designs to my customers.

[Keith Outten]

Jerome,

Sorry, I had no intention of bashing ShopBot or any other manufacturer. I just prefer CNC machines that have a welded frame and in all fairness I should share with you that I spent most of my life as a welding Inspector so welding is near and dear to my heart. The first two and a half D job I machined on the ShopBot at CNU I noticed the frame was shaking as the router bit changed directions quickly. I new instantly that the vibration would disappear if the frame was welded instead of bolted together and since that time I have had a preference for welded frames. Two of my shop benches are welded steel frames with !/4" Stainless steel tops and I have made several of my machine stands myself using my old Miller Buzz Box over the years.

I just purchased a Miller mig/tig/stick machine and a plasma torch so you can see that my personal preference is a serious one but I will admit it isn't for everyone.

I have been fortunate to be able to meet Ted Hall the owner of ShopBot many times. Ted is a great guy and he is probably the reason that any of us are able to afford a CNC machine for our small shops. Ted Hall championed the small affordable CNC machines and his company sells more machines than any other manufacturer. ShopBot has an excellent team of people on their staff and a great support forum. The ShopBot Camps that Ted Hall sponsors are always the place to be no matter what machine you own, their Staff makes everyone welcome and they work hard to provide an informative session that keeps up with the industry as fast as it changes.

I'm still a big ShopBot fan and I watch their company closely because they are innovative and they provide more support to small companies than any other manufacturer IMO.

Nice job on the Lithophanes BTW. They have the WOW factor beyond any other project I have seen produced on a CNC Router. Unfortunately I have never had the time to make one because of my previous day job, three to four hours per day working behind the scenes here at The Creek and my sign business. Now that I am down to just two jobs I hope to be able to stop and smell the roses every now and then.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Although I have less experience, I agree with Keith's opinion on a welded steel base. I just got my CNCRouterParts 4896 and haven't run it myself but saw it run in the previous owners shop and you can definitely tell the bolted base is a limiting factor. I plan on adding bracing to tighten things up but it will never be the same as a welded base. The thing is with a ShopBot, EZRouter, Joes CNC or CNCRP machine is you can always add a welded base if you want once you start making some money. The price of a welded table (Let's say $1000-1500) is not all that incredible. You can also design it however you want which is an added bonus in many ways. It allows you to start small and build up as you go. Now there are other differences between these machines (rails and motion being the most obvious) but upgrading your machine with these bolt together designs is not that difficult. Also, I put my machine through a 32" door yesterday. That would have been impossible with something like a CAMaster.

I was in your shoes looking for a router. It took me a long time to pull the trigger. My opinion is you want to get a versatile machine with a proven design that doesn't cost a fortune to start off. $7-10,000 for a 4x8 machine with software, dust collection, bits, ect is a reasonable budget. Something 4x4 is probably between $4-7,000. Again these are light industry machines at this budget. Something more industrial will obviously increase the price dramatically. What you will find out is that people have been making money with light industry machines like the Shopbot for years.

[Keith Outten]

I normally would never recommend that anyone purchase a light duty machine when you know that its only half the machine you need. A CNC Router is probably the exception to the rule and the reason is that they are money makers. Even a hobby woodworker can make enough money doing small side jobs to pay for a large commercial CNC Router long before your lightweight machine is worn out.

My ShopBot paid for itself real quick.
My Stinger II paid for itself and has already funded a full sized Cobra when I decide its time to add another machine. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people here who will tell the same story.

FWIW I never push my CNC Routers to hard. Going fast isn't a requirement for me and I am almost always machining hard plastic (Corian) which will dull your tools if you push the speed to fast.
.

[Jerome Stanek]

I didn't mean to come off that way I just wanted Art to know that he is not limited to a welded frame unit for Lithos or even production work. The big thing is getting something that you can afford and will do he job.

[Art Mann]

What an interesting and useful discussion! I spent part of my career as a manufacturing engineering supervisor at a very high volume electronics manufacturing plant and you guys are addressing some of the problems I observed in that capacity. We used custom designed CNC routers to cut printed circuit boards and high precision conformal coating applicators that used very similar gantry style robots. (we also used lasers extensively to engrave part and serial numbers and logos). I have had to resolve issues with machines that were constructed with bolt together aluminum extrusions. That is why I am so interested in the experience of kit builders. That is also one reason why the Camaster welded machines appeal to me. I have also had to deal with steppers that got off a little over time and needed to be "homed" to restore accuracy. Closed loop servo motors would fix that but I expect they are too expensive for smaller CNC routers.

[Bruce Page]

You can upgrade the Camaster Stinger II and above with closed loop. I'm not sure if you can on the Stinger I.

[Shari Loveless]

Well I might as well put my two cents worth in on the machine I chose. First I had a Carvewright, then a 4x4 PRT alpha and NOW I have a 4 x 8 Patriot by Freedom Machine Tool. Made in Colorado Springs, CO. I also had 3" extensions put in the Z so I can do thick logs for mantles. I mostly do carving with the machine and use everything from 1/2 to 1/32 bits. The detail this machine can achieve is astounding. It's dead on every time. And I have put it through it's paces. No fussing and no frustration. It's a machine you won't outgrow!