Rolled Bevel vs Micro Bevel vs Hollow Grind

[Roger Nair]

So as you may imagine timber framing requires chisel use in a full variety of manners from very heavy mallet strikes, wasting out wood, paring out hollows, paring end grain, chamferring edges and cutting leads in tenons, so on and on. I feel the rolled edge has performed well for me in all the various tasks. I assume a strict microbevel regime would give similar performance but at a higher cost of maintenance time. I have not pursued using sharpening guides because I feel the very much longer, wider and heavier framing chisels would be unwieldy with sharpening guides. I have in use modern Barr's and Henry Taylor's plus a number of vintage chisels. For my own use with heavy framing chisel, I would avoid low angle hollow grinding for fear of weakness during heavy mallet work, but would consider hollow grind for slicks and paring chisels. So I conclude there is a place for all the various techniques, it is mostly a matter of gear up.

[Jim Matthews]

I am a firm believer in performance in use as the guide to a more ideal state.

Amen, Reverend.
It's an important reminder that tradesman aren't paid to sharpen their tools.

Output matters. Methods that slow production can't be justified.

[Mark Roderick]

1. Every one of these posts is accurate and there are many ways to get sharp edges. However, do what David Weaver tells you to do, and use the equipment he tells you to use. His knowledge is second to none and it is much easier to follow the advice of one expert than to try to sift among many.

2. The method he and Charles Sandford recommend works perfectly and is perfect for someone just starting out. It also happens to be the Lie Nielsen way. Buy their sharpening video to see it in action. If you have questions, come back here and ask David.

3. You are likely to adopt new ways in the future. Then, like everyone else here, you will be the one giving conflicting advice to beginners!

[Charlie Stanford]

1. Every one of these posts is accurate and there are many ways to get sharp edges. However, do what David Weaver tells you to do, and use the equipment he tells you to use. His knowledge is second to none and it is much easier to follow the advice of one expert than to try to sift among many.

2. The method he and Charles Sandford recommend works perfectly and is perfect for someone just starting out. It also happens to be the Lie Nielsen way. Buy their sharpening video to see it in action. If you have questions, come back here and ask David.

3. You are likely to adopt new ways in the future. Then, like everyone else here, you will be the one giving conflicting advice to beginners!

The bearings in my old Craftsman grinder are about gone. For the last couple of weeks I've been slapping cutters in the Eclipse. Frankly, my edges are better. I'm in no hurry to replace the grinder. Planecraft talks about using the "one bevel" method of honing (using a Record jig of course) resulting in a sweeter cutting iron. Seems like it to me. Jim Kingshott used a jig of his own design and making. Good enough for him, good enough for me for sure.

[David Weaver]

The only catch to the single bevel is for folks floating around with 3/16" very hard irons or irons with a lot of wear resistance. If you use a grinder and a diamond stone, you'll fall in love with the biggest muji continental smoother. If you used standard bench waterstones and no grinder, you'd curse the thing until you were hoarse. If you use vintage or softer and esp. thinner irons, then there's not a whole lot of time difference by hand or not.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

This is my first post here...

And a great post at that!

Not perfection, but something that works and is fast.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I prefer to NOT use a micro-bevel for one reason only.... I find it difficult to do free hand and I am usually in a hurry. As such, I prefer a hollow grind. To micro-bevel, I end up using a jig and I have not set anything to allow me to very very fast drop something into the jig so that the angle is perfect. I really probably should do that.

Now, that said, my Lee Valley PM-V11 chisels came with a micro-bevel, and they are really sharp from the factory. I have not found it in myself to slap them on my Tormek to add a hollow-grind just so I can free hand them.

[David Weaver]

I am a firm believer in performance in use as the guide to a more ideal state.

Stealing charlie's line.....can't argue with success!

[Winton Applegate]

Tony,

Sorry I almost missed answering your question to me.
How do I get e-mail notices when people post a comment to one of my comments ?
Anyway I am late responding because SWMBO makes me go to work. Work is really cutting into my forum time. If I don't go to work she will make me sleep on the deck on that old rug (she might even take me back to the pound). In any case I wouldn't have an internet connection. It's best I keep going to work. She's not fooling around.

Why don't I like the ruler trick ?
Here are some answers; most of them are real and honest. I will let you figure out which ones are

Why don't I like the ruler trick

I didn't think of it. ?

The normally demonstrated version where the ruler is stuck in a fixed position on the stone and the blade slid side ways across the stone, perpendicular to the ruler is errrrr . . . I mean . . ., less than successful because it rounds the area being honed and so causes the actual cutting edge to be lifted out of the wood by the rounded area behind it. Or rather the cutting edge can not penetrate the wood as far as it would if the polished area were flat. Remember those circular saw ripping blades with the flat depth stop things so it was impossible to over feed the plank through the saw ? Like that.


The RIGHT WAY to go about this ruler trick thing is to double back tape the thin metal shim to the blade. Just use shim stock that you can get in lengths or a roll. Cheeper than rulers. Why do this ? Because then the polished area is a flat facet just like the back would be if left flat on the stone and flattened that way. No rounding with the stick on method. Is it practical ? Probably not what with the glue from the tape coming off on the blade etc.


The ruler trick is wrong for bevel up plane blades when used in ultra low bed angle planes such as 12º bed. It would be OK in a miter plane at 20º bed angle or more.
The rounding still limits depth of cut and then the blade acts "dull" sooner because the blade is riding on the roundy part rather than the blade edge but at least it cuts.
Some top plane makers say a bevel up low angle plane does not have enough clearance angle at 12º and anything that reduces that even further is self defeating.
(I do pretty well with low angle bevel up planes with 12º clearance but I keep it in mind I might have more fun with more clearance angle).


wearing trenches in the stone in small areas; I can't ruler trick over the whole surface so there is bound to be some localized wear. At least with my softer Nortons. I have not tried it with the Shaptons and have no reason to.


Finally just about the time I am getting all into ruler tricking and things are flowing and I am in the ZONE and all . . .
. . . the ruler slips off the stone and messes up my trip.


I just argue that I don't like the rule trick because Derek likes it and I want to him off. OK I will give you a clue here THIS IS NOT AT ALL TRUE; but it was fun to type.

Adam,
Should I add "In my view" or just pound the table like I have the last word from on high ? Well you know me . . .
No there is no problem with the ruler bevel and the blade seat on the plane. The ruler bevel is not really long enough to cause a problem there. A bevel down plane blade is supported much further back than the bevel up which is one reason I am not a big fan of bevel down planes for planing the super hard woods even though the chip breaker to blade edge micro futzing can make it not tear out.

PS: glad to see Charles is back (even if I have to duck occasionally).

[Kees Heiden]

The normally demonstrated version where the ruler is stuck in a fixed position on the stone and the blade slid side ways across the stone, perpendicular to the ruler is crap, errrrr . . . I mean . . ., less than successful because it rounds the area being honed and so causes the actual cutting edge to be lifted out of the wood by the rounded area behind it. Or rather the cutting edge can not penetrate the wood as far as it would if the polished area were flat. Remember those circular saw ripping blades with the flat depth stop things so it was impossible to over feed the plank through the saw ? Like that.

I call: Bullocks!
We're talking about 1 degree backbevel or so. Round or flat makes no difference in the clearance angle.

But I'm with you in regards to backbevels. I hate them. Each time I sharpen I have to think about if this blade has the backbevel or not. It just disturbs my work rythm.

[Bruce Page]

How do I get e-mail notices when people post a comment to one of my comments ?

Winton, you can subscribe to any thread by clicking on the “Thread Tools” drop down at the top of the page.

[David Weaver]

Back bevels work well when done like the ruler trick. There is no lifting out of materials or any such thing, and if one is using a particularly hard iron, they're a good way to save time.

Guaranteed most of the people on this forum, probably all, would get sharper and more uniform edges using a microbevel on the bevel side and the ruler trick on the flat side of the iron. Most people who have trouble with the ruler trick probably haven't done it correctly.

I don't usually do it, I just spend more time polishing the back on things that need to be really sharp, consciously, because I'm too lazy to keep track of the ruler. I used it religiously when I was a beginner, though, and it never failed to produce a superbly sharp edge in very little time.

There is no rounding of an edge. There is half a degree or so added to the bevel angle, but when you see a worn edge, the effect of common wear even shortly after beginning to wear an edge is far more drastic and actually creates clearance problems whereas the ruler does not.

[Derek Cohen]

I just argue that I don't like the rule trick because Derek likes it and I want to tick him off. OK I will give you a clue here THIS IS NOT AT ALL TRUE; but it was fun to type.




Only used for BU planes, Winton. Not for BD. It's about protection against a wear bevel, not about ease of sharpening.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pedro Reyes]

... I am a firm believer in performance in use as the guide to a more ideal state.

Thanks for sharing, I am a hobbyist, so I (unfortunately) have the time to obsess about mirror backs, microscope inspected edges etc, as we do about the perfect angles on a dovetail and marking with the sharpest knife out there (nothing wrong)... but every time I listen (or read, or watch) a true craftsman, they have your approach... I got some pigstickers from England, all of them had rounded bevels FWIW.

everytime I watch one of those videos from some (non sensationalized) craftsman, they are in many ways the opposite of what we see here, they don't seem obsessed with perfect tools, but rather great results, some of those japanese craftsmen seem like they eyeball everything, they use methods which could be criticized here, yet their results are amazing... nice reminder to "obsess" on the right things.

/p

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for sharing, I am a hobbyist, so I (unfortunately) have the time to obsess about mirror backs, microscope inspected edges etc, as we do about the perfect angles on a dovetail and marking with the sharpest knife out there (nothing wrong)... but every time I listen (or read, or watch) a true craftsman, they have your approach... I got some pigstickers from England, all of them had rounded bevels FWIW.

everytime I watch one of those videos from some (non sensationalized) craftsman, they are in many ways the opposite of what we see here, they don't seem obsessed with perfect tools, but rather great results, some of those japanese craftsmen seem like they eyeball everything, they use methods which could be criticized here, yet their results are amazing... nice reminder to "obsess" on the right things.

/p

My curiosity on the pigstickers is piqued. The way the rounded bevel tends to clear the mortise is by pushing the chunks of wood into a void as the mallet strikes. It may be that a slight round to the bevel facilitates this better than a flat or hollow ground bevel.

As for Japanese craftsmen there is also a difference in life philosophy, religion and spiritualism that effects the way work is done. With a belief that everything has a spirit and working wood releases some of the spirit within the wood... The work is done with a pulling motion to draw the escaping spirit into the worker. After many years of doing work in this manner, the intellectual reasons why it is done this way may have been missed by some and it simply comes down to, "this is the way we have always done this work."

This could be nothing more than a load of whatever, but that is what I have noticed or have seen written.

jtk