Rolled Bevel vs Micro Bevel vs Hollow Grind

[David Weaver]

Yeah, sorry about that post positioning jim, it wasn't necessarily directed at you, it was just about the comment about aversion to expert information that usually is more reliable than our anecdotal conversation. Certainly it doesn't negate the ability go without and use only personal experience for just about everything in woodworking.

[bob blakeborough]

You should keep in mind that the forum doesn't exist solely to provide advice to beginners. People of all skill levels come here. While you may not like highly detailed, technical posts, I really enjoy them. I'm certainly no master, but I'm not a beginner, and generic beginner's advice is useless to me (especially when it's blatantly wrong).
But I don't have any objection to the type of posts you like; I just skip over them. You can do the same with the detailed, technical posts. There's something here for everyone.

I agree 100% with you for sure... As I am going along I too am taking a much greater interest in the mining down of information as well. Lots of information is a good thing in general, but how information is presented can obviously invoke emotional responses, especially as we are all keyboard warriors here and are not facing our fellow participants face to face...

What I am referring to is more about the reasoning that is consistently being thrown around by some members that they are only worried "beginners" are being led astray by "lesser" popular woodworking figures with simplistic views or techniques that don't correspond with how the very best in the world do it, when there actually is still quite a bit of good information and help for the beginner from these people, sending them happily down the road getting experience, which in turn is leading them to garner more in depth knowledge and techniques as they are ready for that. The rub I spoke of was that while using beginners as an excuse for their presentations, they may actually be unintentionally turning those very beginners they want to be helping away with the perception that they are being spoken down to (again, unintentional or otherwise).

Some people don't really care how they are being perceived if they feel that their point is just, but one can definitely be a little more subtle and aware of how what they are saying is going to perceived by others if they truly are concerned with helping newbies to the craft...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

a friendly reminder.......a lot to posts in this thread have had to be edited to remove unfriendly, uncivil comments. Keep on the subject and keep it friendly please.

[David Barnett]

So many blades have come my way that were messed up by someone with a grinder that it makes me think they have a learning curve a lot of people ignore. The lust for speed may be at play in this.

My point, Jim, was never that faster grinding medium surface speeds are better, only that with an understanding and proper application of technique so as not to draw temper, it does not follow that slower surface speeds, whether water cooled or otherwise, ensure faster tool steel removal in everyday home shop grinding environments when a person skilled with faster applies them to bevel grinding, suggesting that achieving acceptably fast results on slower media may be due more to personally appropriate technique than general principles of grinding medium surface speeds—nothing more, nothing less—and that one should endeavor to place anecdotal and highly individual results, meaningful though they may be, in that context rather than to assert generalized principles based on such results.

Nowhere did I mean to imply that theory trumps experienced practice, just that practice in the home shop by its solitary nature may be more idiosyncratic, less broad and less rigorous when inferring from it general principles.

As I use both slow and fast speeds as appropriate in my own shop for materials where tool steels are but a subset, I felt I was qualified to at least call into doubt the narrower perspective and assumptions presented by another contributor.

A slow system with a water cooled wheel may have a speed advantage over a fast grinder without cooling or quenching. Unless one doesn't care about the outcome of the metal's temper.

A fast wheel with a cooling system may be faster at removing steel.

Did I not say:

"So while I'm dubious of those who would derive and assert grinding principles from everyday experience and personal practice of grinding and sharpening in the home workshop, if one finds their use of Tormaks and other wet grinders to speed things along by eliminating errors made using higher speed dry grinders, that's a pretty good tradeoff if one needs that."

Maybe a consideration for what will most commonly be found in our shops or the supply houses we frequent should be one qualifier for what is included in such discussions.

and:

"For others with the understanding and technical skill to move beyond that, they'll likely appreciate commensurate gains in speed. As I'm comfortable and facile using both slow and high speeds I speak to this from actual experience. So again, like so many processes in the home woodshop, what's best is more a matter of preference and habit than a rigorous demonstration of industrial practice."

...in my first reply? I did. So where's the beef?

I also tried—apparently failing—to state my reservations as clearly and with no ill will or ad hominem and was surprised and disappointed in the somewhat bitter response from Mr. Ashton, which I felt unseemly and undeserved.

I now notice that both the post I found offensive and my measured response to it have been removed. Fine, as nothing would be furthered as regards our discussion of grinding. Perhaps I am in the wrong and have in a manner unbeknownst to me transgressed the sensibilities of other contributors or forum decorum, in which case I apologize as that was never my intent.

[David Barnett]

Folks,

a friendly reminder.......a lot to posts in this thread have had to be edited to remove unfriendly, uncivil comments. Keep on the subject and keep it friendly please.
]

Ken, thank you for the gentle reminder. If I've transgressed forum decorum or have been uncivil, I am sincerely sorry and will endeavor not to do so in the future. I would rather not participate at all than to act unreasonably or in an unfriendly manner.

[Winton Applegate]

professional

It occurred to me today that I should have made a distinction between a professional and a Master.
I would say for the most part a master is a person who not only has been in the trade most all their life and has at least, for woodworking, twenty years at it and making their living by it but maybe needs to have a close family member who also has been at it all their life teaching them and maybe one before that.

Generally that would be grand father was a cabinet maker, father was a cabinet maker and this "master" was their grand son and son respectively. To quote Frank Klausz his dad told him "after ten or fifteen years you are going to be a pretty good beginner too".

Does that mean, say for example, that Philip Lowe isn't a "master" because he didn't have the direct lineage and was trained at The West Bennett Street School and so the highest art was with held (not handed down or observed) ?
That sounds really wrong. Philip Lowe works on million dollar restorations and is a sought after expert of the highest order and yet his choice of work bench seems to demonstrate a certain disconnect from what has come before in sound workbenchness.

This may even be an example of what I was saying earlier about a professional often comes up with the first solution that sort of gets them by and then clings to it rather than constantly improving or seeking out the best proven solution.

anyway that was what I was thinking today while applying the old nose to the grind stone.

[David Barnett]

This may even be an example of what I was saying earlier about a professional often comes up with the first solution that sort of gets them by and then clings to it rather than constantly improving or seeking out the best proven solution.

mas·ter

c: a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices

d: (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) :a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal.

While all well and good and thoroughly interesting, my use of master is d rather than c, of course, and has nothing to do with the profession of woodworking or any other craft, but rather a level of artistic attainment apart from professional status or occupational considerations.

Your distinction, is entirely valid, of course, and meaningful in the history and practice of crafts and craftsmanship—"sound workbenchness"—great term. By the way, your previous post was thoughtful and insightful and I totally applaud your work ethic. Bronze founding, huh? Interesting.

[David Weaver]

It occurred to me today that I should have made a distinction between a professional and a Master.

Yes, master is the word I should be using instead of professionals. There are enough masters around to seek advice.

[Winton Applegate]

Bronze founding, huh?

Thanks for reading my scratchings and for your kind words.
Not sure about the "huh" so I will post some of my favorite photos of bronze sculpture. I had no hand in any of these. I didn't even own a camera then so I really missed out taking some cool photos of what we did.
If you go to the Broadmoor Hotel in Colorado Springs, CO (the newer part) you will see architectural trim and applications around the pillars of the building etc.

The Cowboy with the newspaper in the last photo was made at the foundry I worked at but long before I ever worked there.
Up the pass in the next larger town west of Colorado Springs there is a notable sculpture I worked on; it is of a one and one half times life size of a huge grizzly bear with his front paws up on a bronze bolder and he is looking down at a very young American Indian boy with a bow and arrow and his dog following along behind. The boy is "hunting" and has not seen the bear, the dog HAS just seen the bear. No there isn't a bronze wet spot under the dog but there should have been by the look on his face.
That was a keeper.
There is one other photo I wanted to post of a well done clown bust that has some colorful make up paint on it but it has disappeared again in my photo files but is on my iPad. Drives me nuts.
anyway I hope that helps the "huh". I was searching around trying to get into art metal as a line of applying my skills but for several reasons am not doing that any more.

PS: any body here build the Jefferson lap desk that is on his lap in the sculpture? That one is in my files to do one day. Out of wood of course.

[David Weaver]

What's incorrect... slow speed grinding faster than high speed. I believe that was the conclusion.

[Derek Cohen]

What's incorrect... slow speed grinding faster than high speed. I believe that was the conclusion.

Well David, I'd better add a response since a post of mine early in this thread was one that was in that vein. You may be referring to some other posts ...

What I did not say was "slow speed grinding faster than high speed". What I did explain was that a Tormek (read slow speed grinding if you will but that would be incorrect) offers controlled and safe grinding such that the entire honing process may be speeded up by the hollow it creates. Of course, it is up to the user whether they wish to avail themselves of the technique I outlined. Under these conditions the tortoise beats the hare.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Stewart]

I have a Tormek that I bought at a garage sale, a six-inch Baldor, and a buffer. I use all three and the more I dry grind the better I get at it. I still prefer the Tormek for applications where I use it. I can mount a tool fast and the results are always good. Mindless I guess. I have Sigmas and diamond stones for finish.

Best,

Jim

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This horse has been beaten to death and I tire of spending time editing the sophomoric behavior within it.