Diesel Engines

[Chris Padilla]

I did a search on the word "diesel" here in OT and read some interesting discussions.

I have two questions regarding diesel fuel and diesel engines.

(1) Is diesel fuel prevalent? I think it may not be as ubiquitous as gasoline but is it pretty much everywhere? I need to start paying attention to it at the gas stations I frequent.

(2) Are diesel engines any more maintenance than a gasoline engine? I mean this in terms of time and cost.

I can handle most of the mechanical work on my own vehicles (all gasoline) including most troubleshooting and repairs. Are diesels any different to deal with?

I'm seriously considering a diesel engine for our next car. I like the MPG gain plus it just sounds kinda cool to have something a bit different. I hear the torque is pretty amazing with a diesel engine. I have ZERO experience with diesel cars or engines. I'm not even sure I've ever ridden in a vehicle with a diesel engine.

[David Weaver]

The most common diesel around here, aside from the trucks (and you don't want the trucks unless you do a lot of heavy pulling, the cost will never pan out and they don't get great mileage any longer) was the VW jetta diesel. I contemplated getting one when I bought a jetta a long time ago, but decided against it because there were no diesel pumps at any of the stations I regularly pass (live in the burbs, no truck traffic). Anyway, I haven't seen any of those on the road in a LONG time because they were shredded by electrical issues.

If you see a new diesel car, see how it meets emissions requirements. If it does it by recirculating exhaust and using urea, i'm not sure I'd go that route just yet.

Mileage for a similar car should be 20-30% better than gas, but fuel here is about 10-15% more for diesel, so that closes the gap a little bit, and at least for the trucks, periodic maintenance costs a lot more (more oil, and synthetic oil because they're turbocharged, and the fuel filter is more critical, maybe a mechanic can tell us why, if the fuel is just more dirty or if it's over the top care to protect the injector pump).

[Brian Elfert]

Diesel is very readily available. Big trucks and farm tractors need diesel so even most small towns will have a diesel pump.

I would buy a diesel vehicle in a heartbeat if it was available in the type of vehicle I like to drive.

[Tony Joyce]

"at least for the trucks, periodic maintenance costs a lot more (more oil, and synthetic oil because they're turbocharged, and the fuel filter is more critical, maybe a mechanic can tell us why, if the fuel is just more dirty or if it's over the top care to protect the injector pump)"

Periodic maintenance cost are only slightly more because the filters are higher. I've had a DuraMax diesel(turbocharged) for the past 12 years, I use Shell Rotella oil not a synthetic! Fuel filters should be changed pretty regular because of picking up water in the fuel. This is not much of a problem if you buy for from a regular source that has a regular turnover of supply. In my area Most BP's, Shell's & Exxon's have diesel plus the plethora of independents. I've never had water in my fuel(knock on wood). This includes personal & company trucks plus my mom's car.

Water in a diesel could leave you stranded. Most(mine included) have indicators attached to the fuel filter that let you know of water contamination. Both of the Duramax's I've owned have been trouble free. Just fuel, filters, oil, & tires.

Tony

[Stephen Cherry]

Car, what car? Some of the cars that are available as diesels have had big reliability problems. One of my ex neighbors had one, and they were told by the dealer that 4000 dollars in repairs is "normal".

Even the diesel light trucks, I've heard reports about less than stellar durability.

Why not a prius, or something like that?

The rock solid mb 240d's have pretty much rusted away, and I really don't know what the modern equivalent would be.

[Chris Padilla]

I'm considering a BMW 535d (3L) over the 535i (3.5L)...2014.

[Mike Henderson]

Small diesel cars are very common in Europe. My guess is that maintenance there is about the same as a gasoline engine car.

Mike

[David Weaver]

No clue how california's emissions standards apply. It's hard to tell how current car emissions standards are met because VW/Audi/BMW/Mercedes details on their engines is full of marketing crap and pretty short on any technical information.

I know a truck mechanic who works for one of the big haulers and they are having a lot of trouble with newer engines that have been designed to pass emissions standards (engines that recirculate their own exhaust and that use urea or something of the sort to meet emissions standards).

Europe's emissions standards are far less strict than EPA standards.

[Stephen Cherry]

I'm considering a BMW 535d (3L) over the 535i (3.5L)...2014.

I've got a 2003 bmw 540i with the manual transmission, 145k, and can tell you that I would not do it again. Yes the performance is superior to most sedans, but I could have bought 3 camrys for what tha car cost, and the camry takes much less in repairs. The BMW is not horrible in terms of maintenance, but it has been towed at least 3 times. I have been able to do almost all of the fixes myself.

The new cars have turbochargers, and I do like them from a technical standpoint. BUT, if you look at used turboed cars on the internet, you will see lots of them boasting of new engines. This tells me that the engines can and do fail. Maybe bmw has the heat management worked out, but maybe not.

how about a lexus is, if you want something zippy? You could get a IS and a prius for about the same dinero.

One more thing, the depriciation on the bmw's is horrible. My theory is that the repairs out of the free maintenance period would be crippling if you cant do them yourself.

[Jeff Monson]

The rock solid mb 240d's have pretty much rusted away, and I really don't know what the modern equivalent would be.

That was a good diesel car for sure, I'm pretty fond of the 300d's also. We still work on a few 300d's, don't hardly ever see a 240 though.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm late to the party, and brought a wet blanket...

I have a shorter than average commute (30 minutes, each way).
I was advised that the efficiency advantage offered by the diesel engine
kicked in when it was warm - after ten to twenty minutes of steady driving.

In cold weather, that period could be longer.

It didn't make sense to buy a more expensive, smaller vehicle
that didn't deliver actual fuel savings.

I bought a 2007 Passat wagon with the "VR6".
I shaved 1000 pounds off my curb weight
with more horsepower - same fuel consumption
with higher performance.

[Chris Parks]

I guess that we are talking about the new common rail diesel motors that have emerged out of Europe in recent years.

The costs to run one are slightly higher due to the special oil required. Most of them use what is called a diesel particulate filter in the exhaust and if the wrong oil is used it WILL cost you thousands. On the other side of the coin I went from a V8 to my current car with a 2 litre common rail diesel with a six speed auto and it is in every way a better car. I have had no issues at all and we tow a 1500lb trailer long distances and the diesel is better in every way. If I was using it for short commuter work I might have second thoughts as the motor and exhaust need to get up to temperature for the DPF not to become loaded with soot. The DPF is the issue with these types of cars and the Europeans went that way instead of Urea where Mazda in one model at least used Urea. I can say that I will never buy another gasoline car if I have the option. BTW it is my understanding that the Europeans are way ahead of the rest of the world with emission standards particularly in trucks. The new motors coming out of Europe are astounding with low emissions and excellent fuel economy.

[Chris Padilla]

I've got a 2003 bmw 540i with the manual transmission, 145k, and can tell you that I would not do it again. Yes the performance is superior to most sedans, but I could have bought 3 camrys for what tha car cost, and the camry takes much less in repairs. The BMW is not horrible in terms of maintenance, but it has been towed at least 3 times. I have been able to do almost all of the fixes myself.

The new cars have turbochargers, and I do like them from a technical standpoint. BUT, if you look at used turboed cars on the internet, you will see lots of them boasting of new engines. This tells me that the engines can and do fail. Maybe bmw has the heat management worked out, but maybe not.

how about a lexus is, if you want something zippy? You could get a IS and a prius for about the same dinero.

One more thing, the depriciation on the bmw's is horrible. My theory is that the repairs out of the free maintenance period would be crippling if you cant do them yourself.

I picked up a 2001 530i new...has 117k on it right now. I do most of the work on it myself but I'm really itching just to get a new BMW because, well, I like 'em. The 530i has been a great car. I also leased a 2005 545i a few years ago and that car was a lot of fun, too. We're planning to do an ED (European Delivery) on the BMW. This program allows one to pick up their car in Munich and drive it around Europe for a little while before dropping it off...then they ship it here to your dealer. ED is a TON of fun...nothing like a new BMW cruising along the smooth autobahn.

[Chris Padilla]

I guess that we are talking about the new common rail diesel motors that have emerged out of Europe in recent years.

The costs to run one are slightly higher due to the special oil required. Most of them use what is called a diesel particulate filter in the exhaust and if the wrong oil is used it WILL cost you thousands. On the other side of the coin I went from a V8 to my current car with a 2 litre common rail diesel with a six speed auto and it is in every way a better car. I have had no issues at all and we tow a 1500lb trailer long distances and the diesel is better in every way. If I was using it for short commuter work I might have second thoughts as the motor and exhaust need to get up to temperature for the DPF not to become loaded with soot. The DPF is the issue with these types of cars and the Europeans went that way instead of Urea where Mazda in one model at least used Urea. I can say that I will never buy another gasoline car if I have the option. BTW it is my understanding that the Europeans are way ahead of the rest of the world with emission standards particularly in trucks. The new motors coming out of Europe are astounding with low emissions and excellent fuel economy.

Estimates are that the d requires a 1.3k premium over the i so economically, it may not make sense. I'm still digging and calculating around. I just don't know squat about diesels.

[Rick Potter]

May I suggest you check the current (Aug. 13) issue of Motor Trend magazine. It has a long term, 25,000 mile test on the VW Passat diesel vs 4 cyl. gas. It looks like it may answer some of your questions.

Rick Potter