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Thread: Homeopathic Grinding

  1. #1
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    Homeopathic Grinding

    Whenever someone points out errors in my thinking I take it to heart and do my utmost to locate the source of my cognitive shortcoming that I may correct it. Toward continual introspection and self-improvement, I have adopted a most helpful shop appliance to this end.
    Following several therapeutic sessions after yesterday's misguided post to persude others to my well-intentioned but faulty thinking, I've isolated the source of my misundertandings and insensitivities and can now reap the rewards of my cognitive and social conversion.

    While it seemed intuitively that faster abrasive presentation removed metal faster, with tool steel this is apparently not so. One might think otherwise, but then one would be wrong as one who so sharpens is unlikely to draw a tool edge's temper—something seemingly beyond most of us grinding at higher speeds on dry abrasive media—a fact, it seems, I fortunately didn't know until now. So slower is, as a rule of thumb, apparently faster for most woodworkers.

    But there are other, less easily seen, more esoteric principles at work beneath the surface.

    Let me explain.

    I must now embrace the homeopathic model. One of the key principles of homeopathy is that where therapeutic substances are concerned, less is truly more.

    Wikipedia nutshells:

    "Hahnemann believed that the underlying causes of disease were phenomena that he termed miasms, and that homeopathic remedies addressed these. The remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a chosen substance in alcohol or distilled water, followed by forceful striking on an elastic body, called succussion. Each dilution followed by succussion is said to increase the remedy's potency. Dilution usually continues well past the point where none of the original substance remains."

    While it escaped me all these years, it can no longer be denied. By moving the abrasive over a tool's bevel ever more slowly, more material is actually removed than if a faster rate of abrasive presentation is employed. How? Because each abrasive particle is given more time to perform its task. That's how.

    Not only is this so, but slower, cooler abrasive presentation better preserves each abrasive particle, keeping each cooler, less apt to fracture from impact and overheating alike, thereby lasting longer. It's almost as if each abrasive grain is afforded more time, more respect, just as slowing down an assembly line affords greater caring and respect for the condition and longevity of each individual worker, and if for no other reason, is this not simply the right thing to do? But I digress.

    Suffice it to say, now that I've been rehabilitated, disabused of my incorrect notions—others less burdened than I over conventionalities of so-called expertise and accepted practice have the clear advantage here—I have now eschewed what I once believed for the greater good. I now accept, too, that it's far more important to preserve others' self-esteem than to disrespectfully, arrogantly and insensitively press for an opposing viewpoint. You should have no cause to correct me from here on out now that I've learned my lesson.

    But back to our new model. Obviously there are limits, otherwise one could commit homeopathic homicide with 1/10,000th or less of a baby aspirin, which I now know not to be the case. No, one cannot, no matter how one might wish, endlessly apply Zeno's Paradox to achieve ever faster grinding results. I hope someone can propose a practical lower sfpm limit—perhaps somewhere between a Tormek and static media—that can be agreed upon. And as consensus now seems to be our socially responsible path to knowledge, I will readily embrace that enlightened paradigm and adopt whatever result may spring from its loins as my own and would urge others to do likewise.

    As another SC contributor has tested this new methodology and found slower grinders up to 40% faster, I must accept this finding, as one simply cannot argue with science, with empirical evidence, as it were.

    I feel so much better now.
    Last edited by David Barnett; 07-27-2013 at 1:20 PM.
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  3. #3
    Somewhere James Randi is smiling because you've chosen to use homeopathic medicine in your example

    I don't know if he still does it, but for a while, James was opening his speeches by taking an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills and poking fun at the warning on the side of the bottle if too many are taken at once. Following that then with a spot anywhere from a half hour to two hours where he eventually describes the homeopathic principle that the more diluted a medicine is, the stronger it supposedly acts via the homeopathic principles.

  4. #4
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    Homeopathic finance can be a problem, too.

    You just gotta love any theory that postulates water and alcohol have "memory". Of course, that's before Sheldrake postulated morphogenetic fields and "holons"—much more scientific.
    Last edited by David Barnett; 07-27-2013 at 7:35 AM.
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    Tincture of carbide, anyone?

  6. #6
    I guess that must mean that purified water is not only bad for you, but it's super dooper bad for you when you consider how diluted the impurities left over are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    I guess that must mean that purified water is not only bad for you, but it's super dooper bad for you when you consider how diluted the impurities left over are.
    It's not the poison but the dose. In ppm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    Tincture of carbide, anyone?
    I now do all my coarse grinding with ¼µ diamond.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    I guess that must mean that purified water is not only bad for you, but it's super dooper bad for you when you consider how diluted the impurities left over are.
    It might be time for them to do a "put that highly toxic water down" drive.

  10. #10
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    David Barnett,you have just posted a somewhat lengthy and erudite treatise on the benefits and superiority of slow grinding. I cannot but take it as tongue in cheek. As someone who regularly removes considerably more than the usual steel with a high speed belt grinder,I am aghast: WHY did YOU EVER give away your Square Wheel belt grinder? They would have to pry mine from my room temperature fingers!! Retrieve it at once!!

    The only use,and it is a valuable one,I have for the slow speed range of my variable speed Wilton,is for those last,delicate passes over a knife blade I am grinding. At least the slower moving belt soothes my nerves as I present the blade to the slowest possible belt,a bit more secure in the knowledge that if I do touch wrongly (for I am a bit nervous at this juncture),I will grind less of a dollop out of my nearly finished,pristine blade.

    I have a very experienced machinist friend who I respect greatly who said that the slow speed bench grinder is one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the woodworking community. I must agree. We both have over 50 years of grinding under our figurative belts. And I mean frequent visits to the grinder,especially to grind blank HSS metal lathe bits to shape,to touch them up,or to remove substantial material in making form cutters,as I use in brass cap screws for planes,and other purposes.

    I simply quench more often. On a thin blade,about every two seconds. I dip the blade in water,ever kept very near. When it sizzles,instantly back to the quench,post haste!

    I do also love the Tormek grinder which my friend David Weaver so generously bestowed upon me. Its purpose is different,however. I do not remove any more steel than necessary from my prized wood working tools. Just enough to get the job done. For many years in my youth,the high speed bench grinder was the machine of choice for most tasks. It was all I had. I made it do its work admirably and with all due discretion. It readily answered the need,whether to grind a whisker from a chisel,or remove bulk from a blade being ground from the solid,as was my wont.

    The high speed grinders have a great use in the former usage. But finally,I did add a variable speed D.C. motor and control to the Wilton,to sooth my nerves on the last touches.

    Here are a few of the many knives and tools I have ground considerable steel from in shaping. The wickedly curved one is an 18th.C. amputation knife. I must admit,even with my experience,it was a challenge to smoothly grind hollow surfaces in two planes with a flat belt. I am sure the original cutlers used a large wheel with a curved surface for this knife. Its back is 3/16" thick,but most of the hollow ground blade is as thin as a straight razor. Wonderfully quick at turning blue while grinding. Skill and judgement must be used.

    The rifflers,of which these are a small portion, and the fish tail gouges were ground from rough forgings. I have more,but the limit is five pictures,I believe. The most substantial steel was removed from the larger knives,obviously. The smaller folding hunting knife is deceptive: Its blade is 1/4" thick at the back,and hollow ground quite thin at the edge.

    Fro those who are more comfortable with slow speed grinding,use the slow speed units and be happy. I have long ago graduated to saving substantial time and effort by using high speed grinders,especially belt grinders,which grind cooler than wheels,but which certainly command judgement and respect. Indeed,the only grinders I had available when I was 15 were the standard 3450 RPM units.

    David,revert to your past stance:You had it right the first time.
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    Last edited by george wilson; 07-27-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  11. #11
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    A better view of the folding knife.

    By the way,at a machine show years ago,I saw a man take a 2" angle iron and grind it all the way to a 45º angle,so they it looked like it could be a corner of a picture frame just cut in the miter box. This angle iron was 1/4" thick.

    He was using one of those super high speed belt grinders that are just long 4" wide belts,mounted at a downhill angle,with 6" rollers at each end,and a powerful motor. It went about twice the belt speed of the Wilton(Which is ABOUT 3600 FPM). This belt grinder ground that piece of angle iron IN NO MORE than about 5 SECONDS. It was amazing.

    I always meant to buy one of those for the tool making shop,but they cost several thousand. This is the kind of performance needed in a commercial shop if you are trying to make money. Dake makes such a grinder,as do several others. I can't recall the brand name.
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    Last edited by george wilson; 07-27-2013 at 12:47 PM.

  12. #12
    I'm not up on my history, but I suspect the slow speed grinders have become quite popular because of turners and the shaping done on gouges. I had a Tormek for that, and I would not have ever dreamed of doing it on a high speed grinder. It's just so much easier to do it when you can take a couple of passes, or even just one full pass, to get the entire edge shaped instead of racing against the heat. That's m guess, anyway. I don't remember slow speed grinders popping up before turning and turning jigs really exploded, but then again I never went looking for one.

  13. #13
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    The only slow speed BENCH type grinders back when I was a kid were fast. These half speed 1725 RPM bench grinders are a recent thing. The larger ones went slow,but with a 10" wheel,the peripheral speed was the same as the 6" grinders,or close to it. The strength of the wheels made it necessary to slow them down,for the risk of one exploding.

    I say,if you want to grind the fastest and coolest possible on ANY speed grinder,to make the most of the wheel,dress the wheel with a diamond dresser to sharpen the wheel. Diamond dressers make a wheel sharper than the old style star wheel grinders.

    Keep that wheel dressed sharp. I even diamond dress 36 grit blue belts on my Square Wheel grinder. I can get away with it on the coarsest grit belts,because the belt's coating is thicker. It does refresh a belt to a good,noticeable degree,but is not as sharp as a new belt. Every bit helps,though. Those belts do cost money,the blue ones do.

    Using a high speed grinder takes more skill and technique. The results are just as good,and faster if you know how to use them. Of course,the wet wheel grinders like the Tormek are in a completely different category.
    Last edited by george wilson; 07-27-2013 at 1:00 PM.

  14. #14
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    You're right, George, I was pulling the collective leg—have to straighten it then work deftly to keep adductor magnus intact on those impromptu hobby trans-femorals, you know. That knife is as beautiful as its purpose unmistakable.

    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    I have a very experienced machinist friend who I respect greatly who said that the slow speed bench grinder is one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the woodworking community. I must agree. We both have over 50 years of grinding under our figurative belts.
    Aside from faceting, I, too, have little to no use for slow-speed grinding these days. Besides, I can still regularly finesse a thin section carbon steel carving gouge close to the edge. With HSS tool bits and turning tools it's stupid easy, so no, like you, I prefer my metal removal with a light touch and high surface speed. For someone who sharpens infrequently, who is less adept and less secure when grinding edged tools, I suppose the Tormeks, et al, make some sense. I have had converts to faster, though, after they realize just how easy it is to make the switch. Although I have one slow (1800 rpm) Baldor, I'm just as comfortable with the faster. When it comes to buffers, though, I like both fast and slow for different applications.

    Regarding the Wilton, I will admit there have been times I've regretted letting my friend have the venerable workhorse. Of course I hadn't realize just how fast they would became unavailable. Pity. Thing was, I had run out of space and planned to spend more of my time batching and fritting glass, then kiln casting it. As fortune would have it, right after that my living and working space multiplied considerably. Such is life. At least if the need for the Wilton does arise, I can visit it.

    It seems the older and fatter I get, the smaller I work so I've been able to do a lot with those ubiquitous little 1x42 grinders, especially with ceramic belts for steel tool making—lots of repousse liners, matting and planishing punches, small gouges, chisels, knives and whatever else I need. The Wilton was a juggernaut, though, when I powered through silversmith's stakes, larger stone carving chisels—stuff like that—never did any knifemaking on it, strange as that might seem.

    I must admit,even with my experience,it was a challenge to smoothly grind hollow surfaces in two planes with a flat belt. I am sure the original cutlers used a large wheel with a curved surface for this knife.
    Reminds me of when we required extensive masonry renovation on a 150-year-old workman's cottage on the aptly named Mill River in Northampton, Mass. Until that wall was unstacked I had no idea the entire foundation was layers of large millstones from the cutlery mills upstream. Almost hated to see the outer wall restacked. Wish I'd kept a couple of the millstones, too—would've worked beautifully with my current decor which integrates atelier elements with living space.

    I have to say that is one elegant classic bowie—the sort of bowie that evokes images of Cassius Clay slicing up Sam Brown back when mayhem was mayhem—entirely without affectation and those pins are properly tiny as they should be. Your clip is more authentically placed and correct to my eye unlike others I've seen such as Robt. Fisher's Cowboy Bowie.

    The gouges and the rifflers—well, I'm a sucker for fishtails, especially for lettering—I don't much care for matching a sweep to every letter element, every serif and counter contour. Just not my style. Beautiful set. Rifflers with both rasp and file teeth I've made, but only the larger ones tempered for stone and plaster.

    Die sinking rifflers and the sort used by gunsmiths and tool makers I haven't attempted as I inherited a reasonable panoply when I lived upstream from S&W in the 1990s. I have touched up a few, though—lovely and surprisingly tough tools.

    My God you've made some exquisite tools and objects d'art, George. I suppose I'm more materials driven than tools driven, but I enjoy the crossovers from both. Life's too short for just one craft. That's my take, anyway.

    Thanks again for sharing your craft. It totally makes my day and then some.
    Last edited by David Barnett; 07-27-2013 at 7:10 PM.
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  15. #15
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    I have more,but the limit is five pictures,I believe.
    Unless things have changed the limit should be eight.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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