My dog attacked by a Pit Bull ... second time in a year

[Tom Fischer]

Tom,
I understand you are upset, but you need to keep an open mind.

Mike, thanks for the thoughtful reply

"Why did you bring your dog over when you had not personally met the new dog and assessed it's temperament?"
Both the owner and the owner's father (my neighbor) assured me that the dog was harmless "could barely stand up", "a total mush".
I am starting to wonder if that is a standard refrain for Pit Bull owners.
Or maybe there's a some denial of reality for people who own pit bulls.

"Why is a baseball bat a solution instead of a fence?"
I mentioned a fence to my neighbor on Sunday morning. He was very dismissive, "Oh, no, you don't have to do that". (More denial of reality?)

"While your dog is roaming"
He's not really roaming.
My neighbor used to put table scraps out in the bushes/hedgerow (no idea why, and that stuff he was throwing into the bushes/hedgerow was actually on my property)
So my dog would wander over there fairly regularly looking for table scraps.
I asked him on Sunday to stop doing that. He said he already stopped.

BTW, the first pit bull attack was at a public place (a tractor show).
The people who run the show immediately ejected the owner of the pit bull.

[Mel Fulks]

Tom,you're a good guy. Sorry you're going through this. Some good comments here,but dog experts don't know everything about dogs ,admit they are not completely predictable,and say that the smartest ones are about as smart as
a two year old child. Books about dogs are not going to be any help here. Saw a case where a woman's own sweet dog
sudenly tore her face off. Demand proof of the dog's shots, that is the law here .probably most places.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Mike, thanks for the thoughtful reply

"Why did you bring your dog over when you had not personally met the new dog and assessed it's temperament?"
Both the owner and the owner's father (my neighbor) assured me that the dog was harmless "could barely stand up", "a total mush".
I am starting to wonder if that is a standard refrain for Pit Bull owners.
Or maybe there's a some denial of reality for people who own pit bulls.

I have to say it once again. It is not just pit bulls and owners that are the problem. The bloodiest incident I have witnessed involved a clueless owner walking his unleashed "sweet" golden retriever in a city neighborhood and it attacked a dog sleeping on it's on porch. I had a neighbor who had 2 labs that swore his dogs "never wandered far off the property" yet they attacked a horse and killed the foal that was pastured over 1 mile away. (This was the same clueless neighbor who's wife was coming home from work and killed their previous black lab as it wandered the street in the dark winter hours.)

I let my sheep loose (perimeter is fenced) to graze other areas of the property. If you came on to my property with your dog, I can guarantee that your dog would have been injured by one of my sheep. We have one that will leave the flock and ram any new dog it sees - even from hundreds of feet away. Since this sheep has rammed several dogs, it has a known aggressive history. Does this mean you are going to try to initiate BSL on sheep and have my breed banned? I'm not saying this to be a jerk. I'm just pointing out that by saying all pits are evil and should be banned, is not going to solve anything. It shows lack of education. We are allowed to sit anywhere we want to on the bus nowadays as long as we can all behave. :-)

So, while your neighbor was dismissive about the fence, what are you going to do about it to protect your dog? Waiting around while holding a bat is not a solution. I would not wait around for someone else to be the responsible person while I do nothing. I would install a fence on my own property.

Sorry to sound like a jerk, but a tractor show is no place to bring a dog. Too many clueless people walking around looking at tractors instead of paying attention to what their dog and other people's dogs are doing. I like having a dog with me, but I know better then to take it to public events. I have a relative who brags about putting a vest on their "sweetest dog ever" and say it's a service dog so they can take it everywhere. (It's very aggressive and attacks dogs all the time, but they just say it was 'grumpy' and it was the other dog's fault, while giving true service dogs a bad reputation.)

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm no dog expert (I have only ever owned 2 in my 47 years) that said, anything that weighs half as much as me with inch long teeth isn't going to be trusted.I don't care who the owner is or what the circumstances are.

Many years ago my wife was cornered in OUR garden by a loose rotty from a few houses away, the owner seemed to find it quite funny until he saw the gun. He had two simple options, remove the animal from my property in one piece or in several. After a visit from the local police (we have a weird attitude to guns here, they aren't everyday items) I got support from the Police in my actions who said if I had a "genuine fear" for my wife's safety or welfare I would be fully entitled to open fire on the dog. I hate the idea of harming any living creature (with the exception of some types of people) but forced into a choice.....well the wife would have come first without hesitation.

Pit Bull Terriers are banned breeds here unless very stringent requirements are met.

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/banned-dogs

just my opinion of course

Dave

[Mel Fulks]

Good for you,Dave!. There are some people who seem normal in most ways but get a kick out of having their dog intimidate someone . Sometimes when we take our cats to the vet there will be someone with a smirk on his face allowing
his dog to get very close to cat carriers rather than use short leash.

[Charlie Velasquez]

It is not just pit bulls and owners that are the problem..... clueless owner walking his unleashed "sweet" golden retriever in a city neighborhood and it attacked a dog sleeping on it's on porch. ...... 2 labs (snip) attacked a horse and killed the foal that was pastured over 1 mile away. I'm just pointing out that by saying all pits are evil and should be banned, is not going to solve anything........We are allowed to sit anywhere we want to on the bus nowadays as long as we can all behave. ...... while your neighbor was dismissive about the fence, what are you going to do about it to protect your dog? Waiting around while holding a bat is not a solution. I would not wait around for someone else to be the responsible person while I do nothing. I would install a fence on my own property .......

Mike, you made a number of comments. Could you expound a little?
1. You described a couple of events with labs and a retriever. Obviously the sleeping dog on his own porch was not the problem. The horse and foal did nothing wrong. You said a bat was not a solution. What is the solution to stop this from happening again, and more importantly, from happening the first time, because obviously the first time was one too many for the foal?

2. Are you a pet owner? Have you put up a fence to protect your pet? You said you have sheep. Have you installed a fence that will prohibit other animals from coming on your pasture?

3. Who should be the responsible one?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

Let's tone a down a notch.

Keep it friendly and unaggressive.

[Steven Green]

My son has a brindle pit that is all muscle and a sweet dog. However she is territorial and truly aggressive towards other dogs and animals. She tried on my pyrenees a few days ago and in a few seconds realized the error of her strategy. I've had dogs all my life, aggressive docile dominant territorial you name it. It's the owner who is at fault unless the dog turns around bites the hand that feeds it causing intsant leash drop it's always gonna be the owner. Sorry to disagree but that's the way I see it and probably always will. Make the owner pay the freight and hopefully he'll pony up for a fence and whatever else it takes to control the dog and be responsible

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Mike, you made a number of comments. Could you expound a little?
1. You described a couple of events with labs and a retriever. Obviously the sleeping dog on his own porch was not the problem. The horse and foal did nothing wrong. You said a bat was not a solution. What is the solution to stop this from happening again, and more importantly, from happening the first time, because obviously the first time was one too many for the foal?

The solution is for the owner of the dogs to be responsible for them and not just expect a dog to know how to behave in human society and human rules with no training or thought put into it. The golden owner should have been walking his dog on a leash to prevent it from running on to someone's property and attacking the dog on it's own porch. He should have trained his dog to recall. The labs owner should have fenced his property and not allow them to roam free or found a new home for them. He already had several complaints filed with the city and county due to the dogs roaming loose and he chose to do nothing other then come home every so often to pour dog food on the ground. After the horse incident, he was sued for $110k by the horse owner. Last time I looked, the horse owner upgraded their horse fencing to prevent dogs from getting in.

2. Are you a pet owner? Have you put up a fence to protect your pet? You said you have sheep. Have you installed a fence that will prohibit other animals from coming on your pasture?

Yes. See previous post. We have (herding breed) dogs, cats, chickens, sheep, goats and down to one old horse. Entire perimeter acreage is fenced with goat-proof/dog-proof/coyote-proof fencing & hot-wire and the horse pasture is cross-fenced with horse fence. Chicken coop even has buried fence to prevent any potential predator or rodent from getting in. That said, no fence is totally secure when you factor in wild animals, falling trees and impaired drivers. I'm not your average pet owner. I'm certainly no expert, but have learned a lot over the years and hope to continue to learn. I trained bomb dogs years ago as well as trained police dogs to do their jobs. Our dogs are pets, but also working farm dogs. One even does agility and other obedience events with our daughter and she takes him to visit seniors in town after she had him certified to do therapy visits.
I owned what would be labeled an aggressive dog 20 years ago. At the kennel where the momma was, he was severely mauled by 3 hunting dogs when he was 4 weeks old in a fluke incident. He was given to me at 12 weeks and he would put on a huge show of teeth and growling whenever he saw a new dog, yet he had no intention to fight. He just wanted to keep dogs away from mauling him again. When taking him into town to help me rotate sheep for a friend, I regularly had to deal with strangers wanting their dog to say hi to the "unusual mutt" (He was a Picardy) and I had to get forceful with (yell at) the human to "stay back!" before my dog exploded in his display. I learned with this dog, that when the clueless human with a strange dog was headed our way to "say hi," that I needed to step in front of him and protect him and all was well. Best dog I have owned. He taught me to open my eyes and look around that there is more then just owning a dog; there is more then one way of training a dog; and just like people, not all dogs behave the same. Had I not learned this and done nothing, no doubt there would have been fights and bites and tears.
Friends & neighbors with dogs are allowed on our property as long as we know in advance and their dog is leashed and under control and supervised at all times.

3. Who should be the responsible one?

We should all be responsible for our own actions. If you own an animal, take responsiblity for it. Educate yourself about it's care. Keep an open mind. Learn from your experiences and do what you can make things better.

[Roger Feeley]

Here's my take. You can talk about the climate and you can talk about weather. Pit Bulls as a breed are capable of great harm (Climate). Individual blood lines within the breeds may be more or less likely to be agressive (micro-climate) Individual dogs might be harmless or vicious (weather).

I can say this about the breed. My sister-in-law's father (Eugene Hoy) was chief artist for Ralston Purina back in the days when they put all those dog portraits on the bags. He was the guy that painted the dogs. Purina maintained a kennel where champion dogs would come to be painted. I was researching something about Gene and was corresponding with a co-worker of his. Without being asked he made this statement:

"There was exactly one breed we did not invite to our kennels. That was the Staffordshire Terrier (pit bull). The dogs are aggressive towards other dogs and too unpredictable."

My take is that any dog can lash out given the right circumstances. I have two dogs (7 and 15 lbs) and I am very careful when people want to interact with them. I don't fully trust any dog including my own. That said, I can control my dogs but it would take a lot to control a truly angry pit bull. If you can't control the dog, don't have the dog. With a Pittie, I wouldn't want to try.

One more anecdote. Many years ago, my brother and his wife had two dalmations. One day, while walking the dogs in the park, they both suddenly broke away, ran across the park and shredded a little Yorkshire Terrier on a leash. As my brother tells it, one moment, they were two happy go lucky dogs and the next, they were hunters. The dogs were put down that day. My brother and wife had just adopted a new baby. My point here is that these dogs had given no previous indication of aggression.

[Roger Feeley]

Mike, your link went someplace wierd. I suggest that people google Suzanneclothier and go from there. There are a number of articles about aggression.

[Steve Meliza]

Dog attacks another dog while on his home turf. Sorry, not going to be liable for anything in most places.

I was going to suggest pepper spray and hollow points, but I guess you only have access to the former.

[David Weaver]

Many years ago my wife was cornered in OUR garden by a loose rotty from a few houses away, the owner seemed to find it quite funny until he saw the gun. He had two simple options, remove the animal from my property in one piece or in several. After a visit from the local police (we have a weird attitude to guns here, they aren't everyday items) I got support from the Police in my actions who said if I had a "genuine fear" for my wife's safety or welfare I would be fully entitled to open fire on the dog. I hate the idea of harming any living creature (with the exception of some types of people) but forced into a choice.....well the wife would have come first without hesitation.

Years ago, I lived about a mile from someone who had two dogs that were known to accost visitors and be awfully hard on other dogs (on and off property). The owners of the dogs had a party one saturday night (which where I grew up rural meant extremely loud music and dozens to hundreds of people -things can get much larger and louder there before someone calls the police than they could ever get in a suburban area) and someone called the police to complain about the noise. The police arrived at the property, the dogs greeted them (whether the owner did that on purpose, I don't know) and the police shot the dogs dead immediately. Everyone cheered, the story had a happy ending.

[Tom Fischer]

Dog attacks another dog while on his home turf. Sorry, not going to be liable for anything in most places.

"Most" is probably not correct.
Pit bulls are already illegal in numerous countries in western Europe, all of Australia, and many cities in the U.S.
also

"In a 2012 ruling involving the mauling of a child, Maryland's highest court held that pit bulls are "inherently dangerous". It made pit bull owners, and landlords renting to tenants who own a pit bull, strictly liable for any injuries caused during an attack by a pit bull."
(strictly liable means 100% liability, zero excuses, such as "the dog was on my property")
source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

[Tom Fischer]

Dog attacks another dog while on his home turf. Sorry, not going to be liable for anything in most places.

And even if that was "mostly" true, the legal trend is going in the opposite direction.
***
I inquired about having a koi pond installed in my yard a few years ago (6 acre property).
I wanted a "good" pond, at least 3 feet deep.
Turns out that the building ordinance (I think it is State of NJ code) any pond over 2 feet deep is a hazard, and requires a 4' high pool-standard fence.
The thinking being that if a neighbor's toddler wanders over, he/she will not be protected from my hazard.
"On my property" is not a defense, and the act of trespassing is not relevant.
***
Granted this is insurance companies in action, but they have to mitigate the hazards that policy owners will not.
Eventually Pit bulls will be illegal in the U.S. No way around that.