Advice on DT/Tenon saw

[Daniel Rode]

If anyone has read my other posts, it should be obvious that I'm on a journey to learn the basics of hand tools and incorporate that into my woodworking. I also have 3 kids in college, so I'm cash poor and need to be extremely frugal. I have a set of chisels I'm comfortable with and a recently acquired #4 plane that seems to be up to the task. What's missing is a decent (but cheap) saw for joinery.

I have a couple of get saws. One is a small Crown razor type saw. IMO, it's mostly worthless. I have another no-name gent x-cut saw that's larger with more aggressive teeth. It cuts faster and doesn't bind much but it's sloppy. I also really don't like the gent style handle.

I'm sure this has been asked 100 times before. I've read a number of the threads but I still don't feel like I know what I need to get started.

I'm concerned (only) with joinery; mainly sawing tenons and dovetails. Additionally, I'm focused on tenons under 2" long and boards between 3/8" and 3/4" thick. I want to buy 1 saw to learn and practice with. I could probably swing the $70-$80 for a veritas carcass or dovetail saw but that's about the limit to my budget.

X-cut or rip? Carcass or dovetail? Veritas or brand X?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Chris Griggs]

LV rip carcass saw will give you the most versatility in that range. The extra size and slightly coarser teeth makes it a little more versatile then a 9" DT saw, but it will still be plenty fine enough to learn to cut DTs with. While it won't xcut as smooth as an xcut saw, you can use it to xcut. Smaller toothed rip saws in particular xcut without a lot of trouble. I would much rather xcut with a rip saw then rip with an xcut.

My first nice back saw was the LN rip carcass which was nearly identical proportion. I used it for dovetails, small tenons, and small xcuts. It served me very well as a first saw.

[Hilton Ralphs]

For the same money you could get yourself a decent Disston backsaw and still have change for a saw file, saw set and mill file.

[Chuck Nickerson]

In your price range if you're looking for ready-to-go, the LV carcass rip is the best bet.
The smaller size 'dovetail' saw will be a bit small for cutting tenons for furniture-sized work.

A used saw properly rehabbed could perhaps be had for less, but that involves trusting the source.

[Daniel Rode]

One point I forgot to mention. I'm leaning toward a rip saw. The reason is that I'd always cut a layout line with my marking knife before making a crosscut. In fact, I'm starting to adopt the same for crosscutting on the table saw and other machine cuts. It's very accurate, doesn't get fuzzy from handling and no tearout.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm not even sure what saw to buy or how to saw accurately. I think finding and rehabbing a saw is a bit beyond me right now

In your price range if you're looking for ready-to-go, the LV carcass rip is the best bet.
The smaller size 'dovetail' saw will be a bit small for cutting tenons for furniture-sized work.

A used saw properly rehabbed could perhaps be had for less, but that involves trusting the source.

[Jim Koepke]

I have another no-name gent x-cut saw that's larger with more aggressive teeth. It cuts faster and doesn't bind much but it's sloppy. I also really don't like the gent style handle.

My thought is why not work with the saw you currently own?

If it is like my no-name gent saw the teeth are over set, which makes for a sloppy cut. It wouldn't be too difficult to make a new handle for this and give it a fresh set of teeth filed to your liking.

My understanding of what I want in a saw has been improved exponentially by utilizing inexpensive saws for training at filing teeth and making a handle.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

The tooth count you want for 3/8" wood is much higher than you want for 3/4" wood. This means a saw designed for 3/4" wood will be quite (and possibly too) coarse for 3/8" stock which could mean splinters and blowouts. Conversely, the higher tooth count of a saw designed for 3/8" stock means that it will be very slow in 3/4" stock and could either bind or stop cutting due to sawdust clogging.

So the 1st step is to decide what the majority of your work will consist of. If you are building furniture then it will be 3/4" stock. I will suggest the LV 14 tpi DT saw IF the depth of cut is sufficient for you. I have 2 of these (obviously I like them but the handles are small for me.) I also have the carcass saw and like it although, at the moment, I'm using the DT saw and not the carcass. You 2nd step will be to work on a way(s) to acquire more saws.

As a point of interest, decent quality dozuki can be had for about 1/2 the price of an LV but their depth of cut will most likely be inadequate for your needs, but then there is the ryoba.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not even sure what saw to buy or how to saw accurately. I think finding and rehabbing a saw is a bit beyond me right now

Sawing accurately is a skill one learns through practice.

The first step for me was to mark up a piece of scrap and make multiple cuts to the lines. Do not try to steer the saw, let it drive itself. This is how to find what tune up work might be needed. If the saw continually and predictably wonders to one side, then that side is likely set a bit more than the other. Run a stone, my preference is to use an oil stone, against the teeth from heal to toe on the side it wonders toward. This may need repeating.

There are many other considerations that would deserve a new thread.

If you do not start, then it will be beyond you in a year, then in two years...

That is why taking a saw you are not fond of to learn the ways of filing teeth and maybe even making a new handle has little down side.

There are plenty of people here willing to help and answer your questions. The worst that could happen is a saw with which you are not happy stays a saw with which you are not happy.

My learning curve on saw filling is still on a long upward slope, but that hasn't stopped me from trying.

Here is my first attempt:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...Back-Saw-Build

The saw works well. Yes there are a few mistakes, but that is how one learns for the next time.

A few other links worthy of consideration when looking for saw information:

vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

norsewoodsmith.com/search/node/backsaw

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Jim and everyone else who responded.

I set a goal for myself. I made it manageable and measurable.

Learn to accurately cut through dovetails and M&T joints by hand.

My personal metric is a to produce small sample projects by year's end. Achieving this goal is my primary concern. However, it is just a milestone in a larger goal to develop a variety of skills related to woodworking with hand tools.

I can't do this without a hand saw but I might be able to do it without a new saw. The reason I like the idea is that it require no money and I'll likely learn more. My concern is that the mechanics of holding and using a gent saw are different that using a larger pistol grip saw. My second concern is that the gent saw may not be deep enough for sawing tenons. However, I could choose a project with shorter tenons.

My larger concern, though, is the mechanics. Am I wasting my time by trying to learn with a gent saw versus a larger deeper, pistol grip saw?

[Mike Holbrook]

I think I would go with the LV saw too. another cost effective investment is a simple coping saw with a few blades. The coping saw will help get you through the dovetails and clean up tenons too. Tools For Working Wood has one for $11.95, a pack of 12 blades is $6.95.

You might look at the Gramercy Sash saw while you are at Tools For Working Wood. It is much more money than you want to spend, however, you might go to school on the tooth pattern this saw uses. It uses rip saw teeth slightly modified to improve the saws ability to cross cut. I happen to have this saw and it works very well for both jobs. If you modify your one back saw's teeth in this manner you will have a saw much better at doing both jobs.

[Jim Koepke]

My larger concern, though, is the mechanics. Am I wasting my time by trying to learn with a gent saw versus a larger deeper, pistol grip saw?

Learning how a hand saw works is a principle that will apply to any of the hand saws you use in the future.

Sometimes to reach a goal we encounter other goals, or hurdles, along the way.

It appears one of the goals, or hurdles, you have met is to find a saw which will make you feel confident in its use. In your case it comes down to trying to change an old saw into something that performs well for you or trying to decide which new saw on which to take a chance.

Each time one of my old saws is reworked my knowledge is rewarded with an understanding better of what I want in a new saw. I have thought of buying a saw kit, but I am also thinking of making my own completely from scratch. Time will tell.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks again, Jim.

I'm going to take your advice and make a go with the saw I have and see what I can learn in the process. The exciting part is that I can start right away

[Shawn Stennett]

I too would recommend the LV 14 tpi saw. It is always nice to have an example of what is good and right when trying to work on what is wrong. You could always use the LV saw and work on the other saw when you feel more confident. You will not regret the LV saw and if you want to sell it there are plenty of people that like them a lot and you won't have trouble selling.

[Stan Calow]

Agree with Curt about checking into Japanese saws. I have a couple that were relatively cheap from LV and prefer them most of the time over my Lie-Nielsens.