Anyone else here not a huge fan of woodcraft?

[Richard Jones]

....... I took a shellac class from Woodcraft last spring. The teacher spent too much time on the history and origins of shellac. Less than five minutes on French polishing. I don't buy that much stuff anymore, but when I do it's over the internet.

I'm with you. I can read about history, but the actual physical demonstration doesn't translate as well in text....... I also don't care about their speaking to their pedigree. I will have researched that prior......

[Jamie Cowan]

Thanks, George. I edited my post down to nothing, as the first comment about $9 an hour seemed like a decent living wage just about set me off on a rant. I decided I shouldn't grease the skids toward all out class warfare. I always enjoy your posts, and admire the exceptional work you do and have done. As for the Tormek, yeah, it's funny how some sales guys gravitate toward some gizmo or other, and just won't let up. Even in the face of evidence. Flat, stationary stones seem to have worked plenty good for plenty folks through the years, or even the guy traveling with a stone wheel, but there are those who think that shortening the radius and adding electricity is just what the game needed. I don't know about the leather wheel, but an old belt works for me.

[Hilton Ralphs]

the first comment about $9 an hour seemed like a decent living wage just about set me off on a rant.

Jamie, if you are referring to my comment then you've completely misunderstood me. I was actually sympathizing with you.

[Keith Outten]

In the USA a nine dollar per hour wage today, even for part time employment, is very low IMO. At just one dollar and seventy five cents above the minimum wage 9 bucks per hour for skilled work should embarrass a company the size of WoodCraft, Lowes, etc. In the late sixties I made $6.54 cents per hour bagging groceries all through high school. My second part time job as a tool keeper and light truck driver paid $6.84 cents per hour when I was a college student. At that time you could purchase a nice brick home for about four times my annual tool keeper salary in Eastern Virginia.

This shows how much things have changed concerning compensation for unskilled labor over the last forty years. In my opinion the current rates for skilled labor is a disgrace.
.

[David Weaver]

I can't speak too much to the places like lowes and home depot (I'd assume that a fair number of the staff is better compensated if they have skills to demand it - former tradespeople, etc).

As far as woodcraft goes, if they pay something like that at a franchise, I can't see them deciding to pay a lot more in some places and being able to stay in business given all of the mail order they have to fight against and the fact that the franchise owner is expecting some profit, too.

We have a rockler here (no WC) and though I have no idea what either of them pay, I wouldn't be surprised if the rockler tellers and stockers were around that level. they're located in a monstrously expensive commercial area (but might not get much traffic if they weren't). Most of the guys that I've talked to there, though, have jobs elsewhere, and the couple of folks who seem to be in there all the time are either retirees or they rotate out sooner or later.

I'd have to guess the very things we want WC and rockler to carry the most (quality premium tools and high quality consumables) are the same things that are the hardest for their business models to support.

My dad grew up rural and told me when I was little that he made about a buck an hour back in the mid 60s either washing dishes/busing tables or doing farm work. If you do much of those two things, you'll find yourself gravitating toward getting as many hours as possible washing dishes. He got out of school in '72 and made about $6,000 a year starting salary as a teacher. I remember as a kid being told who lived in all of the little buildings on the farms on both sides of the family. If you had a concrete block building that was two rooms with a wood stove, you'd always have an old bachelor living in it if the rent was low enough. Those buildings are all empty now - it'd probably be illegal to rent them. I don't see many people these days living the lifestyle those guys lived. The guy who lived in the block house behind dad's farm loaded shotgun shells and took whatever farm work he could get, but otherwise didn't go anywhere much or spend much money.

My first job in the early 90s was washing dishes for about 10% more than minimum wage at the time (I was making 4.75, and min wage had just gone up to 4.25). I remember getting my first check. I had made an agreement with myself to spend 20% and save 80% and my parents came from such a stingy background that when my mother went ballistic when she found out I was going to spend any of it.

[george wilson]

Keith,you did better than I did. In the 60's ,I was making $2.50 an hour teaching shop.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

As for the Tormek, yeah, it's funny how some sales guys gravitate toward some gizmo or other, and just won't let up. Even in the face of evidence. Flat, stationary stones seem to have worked plenty good for plenty folks through the years, or even the guy traveling with a stone wheel, but there are those who think that shortening the radius and adding electricity is just what the game needed. I don't know about the leather wheel, but an old belt works for me.

I suppose the best way to say it is that I just kept buying stuff until I found things that worked for me. When I had to seriously fix a bunch of chisels, I moved to something with electricity. Note that I had pretty good luck with sandpaper and a guide. At the moment, I prefer the Tormek because I can make something usable very quickly without burning. When things are really out of whack, I find even that too slow and I use a regular grinder. I rarely use my Tormek because after things are good to go, I keep them that way on water stones. I had a lot of trouble learning to free hand, but found that the hollow grind from the Tormek made that much easier to do. I expect that would have mattered less if I had someone else around to help me through my troubled learning to sharpen phase.

I found that I had pretty good luck using the leather portion of the Tormek wheel. and it can polish things up pretty quickly. You need a lot of care, however to not round over the edge. That is probably a possibility for any leather. I bought some leather to attach to a board to use to strop, but since things feel pretty sharp using a 16000 Norton that I purchased here, I just have not got around to it.

I don't know a lot of wood workers that live close, and of those that I do know, I helped them get their hand tools sharper. I keep hoping that I will stumble onto someone close that is a sharpening guru to either put me in my place and show me how to do it right, or to pat me on the back and say "yeah, that is certainly sharp enough". I guess you could say that I am insecure as to the final product. I thought I used to know what sharp is, and figured out that I was wrong (because my tools are sharper now than they used to be).

So Jamie, if you ever make it to my part of town, I will buy you dinner and a drink and you can show me how you sharpen and we can compare notes. Might want the drink after we play with sharp things, however.

[Jim Koepke]

I was making $2.50 an hour teaching shop.

That was my wage installing telephones in the late 60s.

My first car was a VW bug. It took an hour's wage to fill up the 10.5 gallon tank.

Most of my life was working at a wage where an hour's work would fill that same tank.

jtk

[Jack Curtis]

Keith,you did better than I did. In the 60's ,I was making $2.50 an hour teaching shop.

Loading dock work always paid 3 or 4 times most other part time jobs, perhaps because they were funded by boosters and intended for poor athletes. Probably a lot different these days.

[Jamie Cowan]

Hilton,
No worries, I didn't take it in a bad way, but when I saw your post mentioning the pay, I suddenly remembered how chat rooms work in the States. Class warfare breaks out, and it ends with fifty guys telling me I should fell lucky to have a job at all, never mind three jobs--and that if I was worth anything at all, I'd have a better job. I really didn't mean to drag you into it at all. I just had a sense that the topic was going to veer off from what I felt was important in the post. So don't chew on that chisel handle, let me do it for you. No charge!

[Jamie Cowan]

Andrew,
Yeah, I buy a lot of chisels and gouges at antique shops and such, and electricity is the way to go. If the edge isn't 90 degrees or has a chip or was ground at a bad angle, the waterstones are going to take forever. I have a Worksharp and a slow speed grinder for these tasks. Nothing wrong with them, I was just trying to illustrate that everyone has their "I can't live without this" tool, and when it is a sales guy, you should take that into account when he tries to sell you something. What the sales guy likes isn't always going to be what works for you. Oh, and I've rounded some edges freehand that needed to be cleaned up with the Worksharp for sure. As for that dinner, look out, because I have family in Columbus--so you're hooped!

[Derek Cohen]

Originally Posted by Jamie Cowan

the first comment about $9 an hour seemed like a decent living wage just about set me off on a rant.



Jamie, if you are referring to my comment then you've completely misunderstood me. I was actually sympathizing with you.

Hi Hilton

Better make it clear that you are referring to the conditions in South Africa and not the USA. That's where the confusion lies. The last time I was in Cape Town the exchange rate was about 9:1, that is, USD 1 = ZAR 9. With 30% of SA unemployed (official figures - probably about half of the real figures), money is in short supply and goes a lot further for most of the population.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hilton Ralphs]

Better make it clear that you are referring to the conditions in South Africa and not the USA.

Thought I had.

over_here.jpg

The last time I was in Cape Town the exchange rate was about 9:1

Since then it's gone to about 10.5 then back just under 10. Makes buying from the States frustrating because the rate always seems to get better momentarily a couple of days before payday.

[Ryan Baker]

The quality of a Woodcraft store is all about who owns it and how they run it. I absolutely refused to go to the one in Canton, MI for years because the manager the absentee owner had in place was a terrible and it reflected in everything they did. He finally left and they are slowly on the mend.

So you're not a big fan of Randy then? He left to get into tree farming.

[Mike Brady]

The Woodcraft stores in the Chicago area (were four of them, now just two) are franchises owned by the same individual. I heard that they were recently sold, which could only help, in this case. Overall, I'm happy the stores are there for the woodworking community. Personally, I'm a very infrequent shopper there; particularly since their relationship with Lie-Nielsen fell apart and the knock-off tools from the Far East replaced them. They are a decent source for good hinges, etc. and quality finishing supplies. Like other retail stores have discovered, it is increasingly difficult to compete with on-line sellers, which in Woodcraft's case, is themselves,

A couple of years ago, the president of Woodcraft sent out an email questionaire seeking opinions about their company from customers. My response was that they should follow the model of their Atlanta store, which does not have to confine their merchandising to the matrix of products chosen by Woodcraft corporate. The Atlanta store has many products that folks around this forum would be willing to buy at retail, but can't get at their local Woodcraft outlet. If I had access to a Woodcraft storefront based on the Atlanta model, I would undoubtedly shift much of my online buying to the traditional retail format. Obviously, my suggestion fell on deaf ears, as I have seen no change in the merchandising in their franchise stores.