More Japanese Chisel? -mortise and parring

[Jack Curtis]

...Jack thanks for that insight into mortise chisel sizes, I will get both of those sizes. Do you have anything to offer regarding the Koyamaichi mortise chisels vs the Fujikawa? You probably have a third type right?

Interestingly the orei-nomi and paring chisels come in different sizes. The 'Funmatsu-Nezumi' oire-nomi I was looking at come in still a different set of sizes.,,,

I bought Tasai, which are great. I haven't had the opportunity to try Koyamaichi or Fujikawa (are these Imai, like the Fujihiro from Hida?). I'm still sticking to white paper whenever possible. That, plus my experience with a couple of Koyamaichi, allow me to recommend them; but I know nothing about Fujikawa. Trust your tool seller (Stu?), as I did many years ago.

I expect the types of chisels to be different sizes. For example, there's nothing really that a 4.5 paring chisel would do to clean up a 4.5 mortise. For that matter, once you get comfortable with chopping mortises you won't need to clean up at all, it all comes out almost perfectly. You may want to invest in three special mortise clean up tools (mori nomi, sokosare nomi, and kama nomi) that allow you to get inside a smallish mortise to clean up the bottoms and/or sides.

[Dave Beauchesne]

4 is shi or yon in Japanese, and shin is 'dead', so the closeness of 'shi' to 'shin' is pretty obvious.

I'm not up all of these kinds of things though, and my worst faux pas was once wearing toilet slippers out of the toilet.

(The slippers is a typical 'from out of towner' mistake, and the locals watch for it in the new arrivals. Nobody saw me make this grievous error because after 10 years, you're supposed to know better... )

Stu.

Stu: When I went to Japan the first time ( seven years ago ) to visit my future daughter in-law's family, we had had a couple days and meals together. The chop sticks were washed and put in a large straight sided pot in the middle of the table and everyone took a pair to eat with. The first day or two, I believe the chop sticks were set out at my place, and there was great concern of my skill in using them, but I am quite adept, so no problem. However, on day 2 or 3, we all sat down, the prayer was said, and everyone grabbed their respective utensils and began; all of a sudden, everyone was staring at me - - - I asked Yoshiko ( DIL ) what was wrong, and she said I didn't have a ' pair ' - they were two different colors - oooops! Wonderful culture and people - we are now expecting a grandson on December 29th/13 - knowing the special importance New Years day has in Japan, I told our DIL that she has to hold out till New Years.

[Stanley Covington]

I get that it is hard or pointless to try and match imperial and metric tools. One of the frustrations I have had is posters seem to describe Japanese chisels in imperial sizes. I assume people do this so we imperial minded people have a better idea of what size they are discussing. I am not so much trying to match metric and imperial tools as select metric tools of a size that will cut mortises, dovetails... in appropriate sizes in the wood I have. I just bought a Steel City planer that is imperial. The wood I buy comes cut to imperial sizes. I imagine there are ways I could process this wood via the metric system but at this juncture I am having trouble wrapping my brain around thinking in metric. Unless I make changes in my measuring, processing and thinking apparatus I still have to work with wood that is an imperial size, 3/4", 1/2", 1/4" being typical for the door frames and drawer parts I will be working with. The plans I have are imperial too. I think Stanley is suggesting that the way to handle this situation is to have a greater variety of sizes to choose from, which may be a workable if costly methodology. Maybe I worry less about matching sizes and fill in metric sizes I don't have? Even if I had all the sizes I would still have to select the appropriate one.

If you only do one type of work, then only a few tools will suffice. But the tools suitable for making a jewelry box are too small for a toolchest or a door, and only big strong chisels can do timber framing. I think the readers of this forum are not specialists but will try their hand at a wide variety projects and so will eventually want a wide variety of chisels.

The quickest and cheapest way to get a good set is to first use the various types/brands with your own hand. Buy them on at a time, used, or borrow friend's chisels. When you know what works best for you, buy a set of butt (oire) chisels of at least ten pcs. Then save your pennies and buy a set of mortise chisels. When you are ready, buy 4 or 5 few larger chisels for framing or cutting deep door mortises.

The other option is the Honorable Scrounger. When I was a starving student with a wife and 3 babies and working as a carpenter during summer and winter breaks and a cabinetmaker part time while at school, I could not afford decent tools, and frankly, the commercially available chisels back then in the States were without exception absolute crap. So I rummaged through bins at pawn shops, and went to flea markets, and over a couple of years I collected a good set of very old and battered antique chisels for less than twenty bucks, but with some work, and the handles I carved for them, they cut pretty good. The cost was minimal and they put bread on the table. But until I had a decent selection together, I had to design my work around my chisels. This was not fun.

In Japan I repeated this process and bought/scrounged one or two used chisels by well-known makers, and borrowed the other guy's tools (for a few minutes) and tried them out. In this way I learned what I wanted in a chisel and what brands/smiths could do the job. Then over ten years or so I bought or had made the chisels I needed and then some. And those chisels are now worth 5 times what I paid for them. The chisels I use least are oire (butt) chisels, and the ones I use most are mortise, followed by shinogi/paring chisels, and then the big tataki chisels. If I can do the job with a big chisel, I will usually choose it over a butt chisel of the same width.

A wide selection of types and widths means I can select the best chisel for the job instead of designing my projects to match my tools. That is freedom.

Shaku/sun/bu, metric, imperial .... it makes little practical difference. There are exceptions, though. I am building some frame and panel small boxes using thin material, and had to buy a new (but crusty) plough plane with a very skinny blade to cut the grooves to accept the panels. The mortises need to fit inside this groove, but I don't have a chisel that exactly matches that plough plane. I used a bigger mortise chisel, which works, but is a pain in the tuckus, so I had a tool store search for the unusual width chisel. The call came today from Mr. Suzuki telling me he found one. Fortunately, the plough plane blade and mortise chisel are both sun/bu/rin units and so will match. My point is that sometimes matching tools is good. Did I contradict myself enough?

2 mon.

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, that's what I mean. I don't know enough about Japanese furniture, but I have the idea they use loads more mortices then the western furniture maker. Overhere, mortices and grooves are a very common combination. So much so that I would try to match mortice chisels with the irons from my plowplanes.

I am in the market too for some mortice chisles, having used normal chisels way too long for this task.

[Mike Holbrook]

It seems a little odd to me that we have heard so little in the way of comment about mortise chisel types and features, not only in this post but in the others I have followed as well. I think that a large number of the posters on this forum do most of their work with bench type chisels. I have heard comments from a few concerning the Lie-Nielsen mortise chisels and a few others like the Sorbys. It seems to me that the LN chisels resemble a sash mortise chisel more than a heavy duty mortiser. I have read a number of posts discussing larger mortises. It seems that the prevailing method for making larger mortises is to drill out the greater portion of the waste and then pare away at the smaller amount left. Barr makes some heavy duty chisels that I believe are popular for timber framing. Barr makes a heavy duty carpenters set too but they seem to be way down the list in terms of popularity. I suspect that heavy mortising is one of those jobs that still has 1 & 1/2 feet firmly implanted in the world of machines in this country.

I am about to start a bench build. The bench frame plans call for a large number of 5/8, 34 & 1" mortises. I'm not fired up to do them with a plunge router or special mortising machine. If I decide to drill the waste out I will have to buy appropriate drill bits so I am also considering just buying mortise chisels. I am working with Beech and Ash. Good workout?

[Adam Maxwell]

Mike, may I suggest that you can mortise with almost any chisel suitable for being hit with a mallet? Get a sharpish piece of steel that's the right width for your stock and go to town. Further, I suggest that reading SMC and watching videos may lead to more confusion than actually trying this in the shop.

With respect to large mortises for your bench, I'd suggest boring out the waste. Chopping 3/4" mortises with a chisel is a waste of time (at least in my opinion…I've done it once in sapele, using a bevel-edged bench chisel, and switched to an auger for the others). I don't hesitate to chop 1/4" and smaller by hand with my pigstickers, but 3/8" and larger depends on the species.

[Jack Curtis]

It seems a little odd to me that we have heard so little in the way of comment about mortise chisel types and features, not only in this post but in the others I have followed as well. I think that a large number of the posters on this forum do most of their work with bench type chisels. ...

I found out the semi-expensive way that once I had all the "specialty" chisels I needed (as in mortising, paring, dovetailing, timber framing, etc.), that set of bench chisels (oire nomi) that I bought to start with was no longer needed. In the beginning, each new project required different sizes and types of chisels than what I had; so I bought the ones I needed.

But I disagree with Stanley about buying complete sets, since a type of task doesn't require a universe of sizes. For example, mortising is generally a 1" or smaller task; whereas timber framing generally requires larger widths, with perhaps a few mm of overlap. Both types of chisels look alike on first glance, but they're not. There would be no use in buying 12mm (1/2") timber framing chisels.

As to type of mortising chisel, I always choose a trapezoid shape with very sharp arrises from Japan.

[Jack Curtis]

Someone mentioned that there were no problems in downsizing chisels as needed, say grinding a 6 mm to make a 5 mm. The way Japanese chisels are made (cast iron partially wrapped in cutting steel) make this potentially problematic, since the cutting steel usually is extended partially up the sides. So you'd have to be careful to avoid significantly narrowing those "wraps."