Member
Hmm, so Powermatic is basically the same as the rest of the companies??? Everything is made in the same place and just painted and badged??? I thought the turners raved about the Powermatic lathe over in the turning forum. Is that one different somehow?
Contributor
I don't think an $8000 lathe (or any of their other flagships) have any bearing in this argument; no more than the Dodge Viper represented the quality of the Neon. Any company can blow the budget and create excellence. The question is, what are their more pedestrian offerings? IMO, pretty much all your hobbiest level machines are rather average. Now don't get me wrong, I think PM makes fine 10" cabinet saw, 14" bandsaw, etc. They just aren't that much different from Grizzly's offerings at 1/2 the price. I have hammers ranging from cheapo Craftsmans to high dollar Eastwings and I really couldn't say one is better than another. Their is just not much you can do with a hammer.Originally Posted by john davey
Contributor
Johnny,
Where do you find a $8,000 lathe that's made by Powermatic?
Value or worth is subjective. It's a matter of personal preference. There is no right or wrong.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
Member
The Powermatic 4224 lathe is 7500+.
I don't believe we are saying that any of these badges are junk or even poor in general. The PM 3520x lathes get rave reviews, their PM2800 DP, not so much. Grizzly's G0490x jointer is widely praised, Grizzly lathes not so much. The era we wistfully look back to when a badge meant a level of quality that could be depended on across the board is what, I think, is being lamented. T'was a time that Sears took care of you, cradle to grave . . . but to stop and think about it . . . The older I get, the better I was too.
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".
– Samuel Butler
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I'm not saying nothin. Don't want to get into trouble.
Contributor
The sky is falling, the sky is falling........
None of the brands in that group are what I would call spectacular, so maybe, just maybe, quality will be improved.
Just a random thought.........
Larry
Member
The purchase of a company by a "capital management" company doesn't mean that the quality will go down. It doesn't mean it will go up. It simply means that somebody in a capital management outfit sees an opportunity to make some money.
As an example, Ducati Motorcycles was acquired by Texas Pacific Group (TPG Capital now) in 1996. The bikes got better and better, and TPG finished cashing out in 2005. Conversely, we've seen great tool companies get hosed by other great tool companies. Porter-Cable's butchery at the hands of B&D then Stanley Black & Decker comes to mind as the most obvious recent example. So simply changing hands, whether to an investment company or another tool company doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot any which way.
It came to pass...
"Curiosity is the ultimate power tool." - Roy Underhill
The road IS the destination.
Contributor
Dale, unless you buy a SawStop, there is nothing to be gained and a lot of downside IMO in buying any other new TS, except the high end European ones which are at a different price level. Those old Unisaws, PM-66's, etc., have been around for decades because they were built like battleships. You can often find them at a very reasonably price, parts are available, and many aftermarket products (like rip fences) are available for them. They are a far better value IMO. Best of all, they will run with minimal maintenance for decades more. Forget the shiny paint. Look under the hood.
John
Member
in an economic sense, value derives from the utility received from an item vs. the consideration that is exchanged for that utility. obviously, the greater the utility received and the lower the amount of consideration which must be exchanged to receive that utility, the greater the value. this discussion does not recognize the superficial thrill an individual may realize when exchanging an amount of consideration that is out of proprtion for the utility derived from an item.
Contributor
I would suggest there is no definitive measure for utility. That is subjective. What are the units of measurement for utility?
Take art for example. There is no measurement for value or utility and thus people pay more or less for a given piece because it's value, it's utility and it's beauty is only what a particular buyer realizes and is willing to pay.
Value is subjective. It's a matter of personal opinion. What you value may be meaningless to the next person and thus not as valuable to the other person. There is no right or wrong. There is no moral high ground.
Last edited by Ken Fitzgerald; 10-11-2013 at 10:28 PM.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
Member
utility is not a question of moral high ground. it is, in an economic sense, quantifiable. providing greater consideration for an item because it provides emotional reassurance should not be confused with soundly based economic decisions that seek to maximize functional utility.
Contributor
Value is strictly what an individual buyer perceives as an objects worth. It makes economic sense. It is subjective and there is no defined unit of measurement for utility or functional utility. That's why different people are willing to pay different prices for an exact same object. The different buyers place different values on the object.
You argue solely for the sake of argument. I could easily reveal the reason Joseph but for now I won't.
Enjoy your evening Joseph.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
Contributor
Yep, to quote W. Edward Demming, "Quality is what the customer says it is." Too many people think that quality can only be expensive, high tolerance products. But the customer may want a product that is acceptable to the job and which is cheap enough to be discarded when the job is completed (for example). In that case, the expensive, high tolerance product is not high quality and the cheap, discardable product is high quality.
So many companies have gone out of business and the owner has said, "But I always made a high quality product!" If it's not what the customer wanted, it's not high quality.
Another way of phrasing it is "Quality is meeting the needs of the customer."
Mike
[A woodworking example: Many woodworkers use Japanese saws, not because they're so much better than western saws, but because they don't have to learn how to sharpen a saw or send the saw out to be sharpened. They just buy a new blade. For them (for their needs), the Japanese saw is a higher quality product than a western saw. It best meets their needs. Those who would argue with those people and try to tell them they're wrong and that western saws are of higher quality are on a fool's errand.]
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 10-12-2013 at 12:06 AM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
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aaahhhh, threats. the last bastion of an indefensible position.
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