Attaching Newel to Floor

[Stephen Musial]

I'm going to be building a newel post for a customer (and friend) an the floor is already down and finished so attaching it to the framing is out of the question. I've seen a few different systems for attaching them to a floor - does anyone have a favorite?

This is the newel and rail to be made from quartersawn red oak:

Arens Rail.pdf

[Yonak Hawkins]

Stephen, can you get to the area from underneath to put in a fastener or two, attached to the flooring ? Otherwise, is the floor made of such material that you could put a double-end threaded fastener, hopefully into a joist, but not likely ? -- This, of course, would mean you would have to put in the newel post first and install everything else after as the newel post would have to be twisted on.

[Alan Caro]

Stephen Musial,

The least disruputive method over a finished floor would seem to be to drill and install as many- well 2 ,3,or 4- large- 1" or so diameter dowels into the bottom of newel that protrude the depth of the flooring and subflooring and then drill corresponding holes in the floor. In case the dowel holes are into the stringers ensure that the holes are not deeper than the dowel projection, ensuring that the holes are "filled" with dowels and everything is structurally solid. Apply glue to pegs and bottom surface of newel and clamp if possible with pipe clamp or even rig weighting, checking for horizontality with a level. You're correct to be careful as handrails- supported at the ends and corners on newel posts- need to be very strong in every direction.

Alan Caro

[Jamie Buxton]

Here's one I've seen used... Build the newel post as a hollow box without a bottom. Build a foundation box which has sides and a bottom, but no top. It just fits inside the newel post. Put the foundation box in place and lag-bolt through its bottom into the floor. At the very least, get the lags into the subfloor. Better would be to lag into some framing. Then drop the newel post over the foundation box, and run screws horizontally through it into the foundation box. Cover those screw heads with the baseboard you have wrapped around the bottom of the newel post.

[Sam Murdoch]

Here's one I've seen used... Build the newel post as a hollow box without a bottom. Build a foundation box which has sides and a bottom, but no top. It just fits inside the newel post. Put the foundation box in place and lag-bolt through its bottom into the floor. At the very least, get the lags into the subfloor. Better would be to lag into some framing. Then drop the newel post over the foundation box, and run screws horizontally through it into the foundation box. Cover those screw heads with the baseboard you have wrapped around the bottom of the newel post.

This is a good method but - and I know Stephen that you write - "attaching it to the framing is out of the question", so respectfully I suggest an even better method. You don't say that you have looked and know that you can't have access to the underside but rather you are concerned about the existing finished floor.

If the inside of the hollow newel post is made to be a section of 4x4 or 2x4 you can cut a hole in the floor to allow this center post to go below the floor and be fastened securely to joist below - either directly or with a frame work as needed to reach the nearest joist. You can line the inner bottom of the newel with some thickness of plywood as might be needed to fill the space if your inner post is smaller than the inside dimension of the box newell. The post and therefore the hole will be completely hidden by the newel post. The post can be tall and you can use glue and discreetly placed screws to help secure the box newel to it. The more secure the inner post is the more secure the entire assembly becomes. At the least though use the method Jamie has described it is secure and a bit easier to locate precisely than other methods.

[Stephen Musial]

Unfortunately, no access to anything structural from above or below - that's one of the reasons he got rid of the guys who were doing the work and I'm finishing the trim up for him.
There is this mounting plate: http://www.amazon.com/BW-Creative-Wo...d_sim_sbs_hi_4 but I'm not crazy about the little amount of leverage it will take to knock it over (at least in my mind).

And then there's this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0UASPaPHSY but I don't want to put all my faith in one bolt head as I've popped to many off with just a 6" ratchet.

I'm thinking something akin to Jamie's idea but like an old bed rail fastener that is a lag on the bottom and would be lagged down into the floor and (hopefully) hit a joist. The top is threaded and would slip through a hole in the bottom (solid) 2' of the newel and then bolted down tight to the floor (hidden with either a removable access panel or attached after the fact). I could also screw a few 4" hardened screws down at an angle at the bottom for extra support and make plugs to hide them.

If I did Jamie's idea, I'd want to screw it higher up as well as at the bottom but would just have to make plugs. However, being q-sawn red oak, it's not going to be fun trying to match the grain...

[Sam Murdoch]

Using Jamie's basic idea - make the inner box 5" or 6" tall +/- with a double plywood bottom and the whole thing fitted to precisely the inside of the hollow newell post. Bed the inner box with a good adhesive caulk to the floor and if possible to the face of the riser. Fasten through the floor and into whatever substrate exists with lags or timber lock type fasteners. Might be worth adding a few lags through the finish floor into structure below even before securing the inner box. If you can remove the bottom tread and get some blocking in behind the riser use that to your advantage and lag through all that as well. The newell post can slide over all and be glued in place. Again fasten through the back of the riser if possible with long lags or the like into the newell post. Fit the tread around the post. Install fastenings wherever you can discreetly but substantially and hide with baseboard or other trim. As for matching grain, take your plugs from the face of the newell that will be against the riser. Add baseboard or another type of trim detail if need be. Hard to clean up some one else's mess without stepping outside the box sometimes.

The down side to the bed rail and other "slip over" systems is how difficult it can be to align everything properly. Mis-alignment leads to a sloppy fit. If you are using a solid newell and you cannot for some reason sleeve it over the bottom riser or create some other joinery, your only choice is to glue and lag the crap out of it. Again going through the riser from inside if possible.

If you can provide photos of the situation and the parts on hand we could respond with less speculation.

Plan your railing connections to add strength too. You are building a system with all parts contributing to the strength of the whole.

[phil harold]

I dont like them, but they do work
http://www.ljsmith.com/products.aspx...e=9&product=15