Mass production - Poker Chip Trays

[Mark Bolton]

Find someone with a W&H (or clone) and have a set of knives ground. Simple and fast. If you were drilling these before (shudder) anything will be faster on many levels.

It'd be interesting to know (not that you should divulge) what the price per unit is.

[glenn bradley]

I'm less and less amused by the unhelpful responses I see to posted here by some. Let's not muddy the Creek.

I assume you are not tooled for this or you would not be asking ;-). If you have a tablesaw and a router table I agree on hogging out with a dado stack and finishing up with a router bit. Poker chips can be various sizes so confirm your customers stock before hand. Many casinos use chips that are a bit over 1-1/2" in diameter or at least that is what Google says. Given that approximate size Whiteside makes cove bits in that range. You could request one without the bearing mount or, just grind it off yourself. I would prefer to spend a bit more and get a bit made that has a cutter clear across for a smoother initial surface. PM our member Tom Waltz at Carbide Processors for info on custom bits.

[Chris Hedges]

Thank you for the wonderfully useful response!

[Chris Hedges]

3hp TS, router table with 3.25HP motor. Etc.

[Chris Hedges]

Here are my experiences thus far -

removing meat and using router bit doesn't do it. Router can't be slowed down enough to prevent burning with a bit this size. MLCS is the only company I found with a bit close enough to 40mm and the bit was crap.

Drilling is fairly slow but actually faster then above. Again leaves a less than desirable surface. Even colt maxi cut bit requires a good amount of sanding.

Using any form of cutter used for running cove down the length of the board and then piecing together creates a cross grain situation when glueing on the outer two pieces. Not good for expansion and contraction. Holes need to be cross grain. Even if the cross grain is acceptable, adding in all the cutting and glueing seems like it will only make things slower.

im thinking of piecing this out to a millwork shop and let them figure it out. They can use the CNC!

Thanks for for the replies guys.

chris

[Mark Bolton]

I don't see how gluing together the central piece would create any cross grain issues as compared to running it out of a solid? They will act identically. The suggestions to do a glue up is mainly to break the fluted portion down to a size that could be accommodated by a shaper or small moulder.

By far the best option would be to sub out the fluted portion to a shop that could easily run this for you in long lengths that you could then cut to length and add your ends.

You could however easily do it in a smaller shop setup with a muti pass on a W&H or a single pass on a moulder capable of the full width. Either way would be far simpler than any hogging/drilling/routing/cutting/heavy sanding, option.

All options one will bear heavily ion your margins

[Chris Hedges]

I don't see how gluing together the central piece would create any cross grain issues as compared to running it out of a solid? They will act identically. The suggestions to do a glue up is mainly to break the fluted portion down to a size that could be accommodated by a shaper or small moulder.

By far the best option would be to sub out the fluted portion to a shop that could easily run this for you in long lengths that you could then cut to length and add your ends.

You could however easily do it in a smaller shop setup with a muti pass on a W&H or a single pass on a moulder capable of the full width. Either way would be far simpler than any hogging/drilling/routing/cutting/heavy sanding, option.

All options one will bear heavily ion your margins

Mark - these are boards (trays) 10 inches long and 3 wide. Holes are cut cross grain. If I run a flute down an 8' board and chop it up into pieces to glue together that puts end grain on the long edges. Gluing the side pieces on essentially means gluing long grain to end grain. That'll work until expansion and contraction tears things apart. Hopefully I'm explains myself clearly.

Chris

[Joe Jensen]

I agree with the others here on subbing out the flute work. A CNC would be very easy and fast. You might have only an hour of time in it and spend maybe $200-300. Have them flute long stock, make some extra.

I've done large coves on the table saw and sanding even a small amount is a drag. Doing 100 or more of those trays is NOT something I'd want to sand if I did it on the table saw or with multiple passes on an RT.

I have a good shaper and feeder, the cutter would likely cost $300 or more. You could also go to a molding shop and have them custom cut a knife to do it. I did a large custom cove molding like 20 years ago and the knife was over $100 then plus the labor.

[Bob Vaughan]

Holes are cut cross grain.

Its tedious production work that you should be able to make money on. I did some quick guessing on times and it looks pretty good for selling them for $32.00 each assuming a shop rate of $75.00/hr. You should be able to beat most of the times I've figured in.

Equipment: Good drill press with 6” throw, carbide tipped multi-spur bit, spindle sander plus stock processing equipment.
720 holes at 1 hole per minute = 12 hrs
setup for jigs= 6 hrs
sanding 6 hrs
stock prep 4 hrs
finishing 8 hrs
assembly 4 hrs
cutting outside strips 10 hrs
50 hrs

150 bf 8/4 stock @ 4.00 $600.00
tooling $250.00
Shop labor (50 hrs @ 75.00 3750.00
Total 4600.00
Per unit 32.00

[Stephen Cherry]

Mark - these are boards (trays) 10 inches long and 3 wide. Holes are cut cross grain. If I run a flute down an 8' board and chop it up into pieces to glue together that puts end grain on the long edges. Gluing the side pieces on essentially means gluing long grain to end grain. That'll work until expansion and contraction tears things apart. Hopefully I'm explains myself clearly.

Chris

Am I seeing the picture wrong? It looks like the holes are cut with the grain and the sides are pin nailed (and glued) onto the end grain. The ends have CR Onsrud inverted pin router with a spiral bit written all over them. The grooves, maybe a magic moulder custom ground profile to a little over half the hole? Or a whiteside core box bit?

Of course the easy thing would be to hire this out, if there is someone available. If I were setting up in the business of making doo dads like this, I would buy the biggest cr onsrud pin router I could get my hands on. These come up used, sometimes for penny's on the dollar, and the big ones can put more hp into a spindle for the least amount of money of any machine I can think of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI18ZWaG1_c

[Chris Hedges]

Its tedious production work that you should be able to make money on. I did some quick guessing on times and it looks pretty good for selling them for $32.00 each assuming a shop rate of $75.00/hr. You should be able to beat most of the times I've figured in.

Equipment: Good drill press with 6” throw, carbide tipped multi-spur bit, spindle sander plus stock processing equipment.
720 holes at 1 hole per minute = 12 hrs
setup for jigs= 6 hrs
sanding 6 hrs
stock prep 4 hrs
finishing 8 hrs
assembly 4 hrs
cutting outside strips 10 hrs
50 hrs

150 bf 8/4 stock @ 4.00 $600.00
tooling $250.00
Shop labor (50 hrs @ 75.00 3750.00
Total 4600.00
Per unit 32.00

$45. Good breakdown though.

[Chris Hedges]

Am I seeing the picture wrong? It looks like the holes are cut with the grain and the sides are pin nailed (and glued) onto the end grain. The ends have CR Onsrud inverted pin router with a spiral bit written all over them. The grooves, maybe a magic moulder custom ground profile to a little over half the hole? Or a whiteside core box bit?

Of course the easy thing would be to hire this out, if there is someone available. If I were setting up in the business of making doo dads like this, I would buy the biggest cr onsrud pin router I could get my hands on. These come up used, sometimes for penny's on the dollar, and the big ones can put more hp into a spindle for the least amount of money of any machine I can think of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI18ZWaG1_c

yes. Holes are cut cross grain. Sides are glued long grain to long grain. The short length of the tray is end grain.

chris

[Stephen Cherry]

yes. Holes are cut cross grain. Sides are glued long grain to long grain. The short length of the tray is end grain.

chris

It looks the opposite in the picture, where the grain runs along the hole. Isn't the grain running the length of the hole in the picture?

[Jeff Duncan]

I respect Bob's opinions but would question a couple of his estimates. I think 1 hole per minute is maybe a bit optimistic. Even assuming a sharp bit and a fast change jig setup that just seems optimistic to me?

Second, sanding is only given 30 seconds per hole.....again I think that's optimistic as well. Assuming you have an industrial spindle sander than can run for hours at a time sanding the mill marks out of a hard wood. And even if you only needed a paper change say every 100 pieces, (very optimistic sanding hardwoods like maple), changing the sleeves will take you probably 5 minutes or more each time. So you have less than 30 seconds per hole/groove and you still have the ends tops and sides?

If it were me I would probably double both of the above estimates depending of course on the type of quality your looking to achieve.

Lastly I agree with Stephen that what you have in the picture is opposite than what your describing! In the picture the wood is long grain perpendicular to long grain which is what your saying you don't want to do. There's no way the short side of the tray is end grain in that picture, looking at the growth rings it HAS to be against the darker sides. Those "holes" are cut with the grain, not across it. Have you done one in the configuration your talking about to show your client? If not you MUST do this as it's going to be a completely different look! You don't want to deliver 100+ trays only to have them rejected b/c they're not the same as what you showed them

good luck,
Jeffd

[Stephen Cherry]

Lastly I agree with Stephen that what you have in the picture is opposite than what your describing! In the picture the wood is long grain perpendicular to long grain which is what your saying you don't want to do. d

Thanks, I was scratching my head on this. I'm wondering if this were actually cut across the grain if it would leave the grain too short where the top could be easily broken.