220v question

[Ryan Mooney]

The issue is that a 10-50p is two hots and a neutral. It is no longer legal to set up a circuit like that, so unless you happen to have an existing one, you are out of luck. You should get in touch with Woodmaster and see why they did that. The implication is that the machine requires a neutral, which is unlikely.

Thanks for getting back to the huge red elephant in the room, the fact that there is a 10-50p plug on it raises a red flag of suspicion that there is something weird in the neighborhood. If it was my machine I'd want to quadruple check that there are NO 110v circuits on that (lights, control circuits, etc..) and if there were I'd be re-wiring it with a new cord that has two hots, a neutral and a ground. If there are no 110v circuits odds are good that the PO simply wired it with something that looked close to right (which don't make it right).

The 10-50 connectors were accepted when there was no ground-earth bond which meant that you could grab a hot wire and as long as there was no other path to earth (i.e. a mouse hadn't died across the neutral wire and a water pipe) you were fine because there was no return path. This is decidedly not true today where everything is bonded to earth so where having the body of the tool energized then was "ok", today it means you get all tingly. So its plausible even that the PO of the equipment was in a shop with no ground-earth bond (although that seems unlikely its plausible if it was an old building and wasn't under osha..). Its also plausible that there is indeed a 110v circuit on the machine somewhere and the PO was familiar with the old rules and wired it like the ground-earth bond didn't exist ("this is how we wired the stove when I was a kid, worked fine!!!") which are the possibilities that would concern me.

[Todd Burch]

On my Woodmaster planer/moulder**, W725, it has the 5HP 220 motor, and a second 110 motor for the feed rollers.

Perhaps the drum sander is similar. As Bob said originally, the 10-50 is what Woodmaster recommends.

I've never had a machine before that required 2 power cords.

Any options for a 1-plug solution for my machine? (That would carry both 220 and 110?)

Todd

** I purchased my machine a few months ago at auction, it has no tail on it, and it will be several months before I'll have a shop to even get interested wiring it up.

[Wade Lippman]

On my Woodmaster planer/moulder**, W725, it has the 5HP 220 motor, and a second 110 motor for the feed rollers.

Perhaps the drum sander is similar. As Bob said originally, the 10-50 is what Woodmaster recommends.

I've never had a machine before that required 2 power cords.

Any options for a 1-plug solution for my machine? (That would carry both 220 and 110?)

Todd

** I purchased my machine a few months ago at auction, it has no tail on it, and it will be several months before I'll have a shop to even get interested wiring it up.

I am NOT recommending you do this; just saying what Woodmaster could have done to avoid having two power cords.
They could have used a 14-50 for both the 120v and the 240v, since the 14-50 has a neutral for the 120v. That assumes that both motor will run properly on 50a, which I expect is true, but don't know.

Perhaps the drum sander also requires 120 for a motor, so they put the 10-50 on it for the neutral. That would be illegal to use except in an existing 10-50r circuit. If that's the reason, they should have used a 14-50p.

[Todd Burch]

So, if a 14-50 is 4 prongs: 2 hot for 240, 1 hot for 110 + 1 for neutral... how does the machine get grounded? Thru the neutral?

[Dan Friedrichs]

So, if a 14-50 is 4 prongs: 2 hot for 240, 1 hot for 110 + 1 for neutral... how does the machine get grounded? Thru the neutral?

No, the 240 and 110 hot are the "same". There is 240V between the 2 hots, and 120V between either hot and neutral.

[Duane Meadows]

So, if a 14-50 is 4 prongs: 2 hot for 240, 1 hot for 110 + 1 for neutral... how does the machine get grounded? Thru the neutral?

Oh my... 2 hot for 240(each has 120V to neutral) 1 neutral, 1 equipment ground. Seems this forum is a scary place to ask electrical wiring question. But I have been in houses with stranger things done. Makes me glad I retired

[Todd Burch]

No, the 240 and 110 hot are the "same". There is 240V between the 2 hots, and 120V between either hot and neutral.

Define "same".

"Same" as in they are both 120? Yes. "Same" as in the same phase? No.

Lets call these 180-out-of-phases phases A and B. And lets call the 3 hot wires LEG1, LEG2 and LEG3, and then there is the neutral.

Let's assume LEG1 comes from phase A and LEG2 comes from phase B and LEG3 comes from phase A.

LEG1-A and LEG2-B make 240.
LEG2-B and LEG3-A make 240.

What do you get if you combine LEG1-A and LEG3-A? If it's not 240V, they are not the same.

[Wade Lippman]

Huh? What 3 hot wires? What is out of phase. What are A and B?
As several people have said, there are 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground.
Hot1 to hot2 is 240v
Hot1 or hot2 to neutral is 120v.
Nothing should ever go to ground.
Hot 1 goes from 0 to 120v in phase with hot1 going from 0 to -120v.
The values are all arbitrary; it is the differences between the two that matters.

[Todd Burch]

Oh my... 2 hot for 240(each has 120V to neutral) 1 neutral, 1 equipment ground. Seems this forum is a scary place to ask electrical wiring question. But I have been in houses with stranger things done. Makes me glad I retired

(Please don't think of me as an electrical idiot. I've never taken theory. I'm certainly not an electrician. Asking questions and getting feedback, I consider, to be a 100% risk free adventure. I successfully wired my old shop for 3 phase just fine. From the tone of these electrical related threads on this and other forums, if I had 10 people inspect my work, I suppose I would get 10 flavors of inspection reports, and each of the 10 inspectors would argue with the other 9 inspectors. So, if you want to laugh at my questions, enjoy. If people on this forum were as demeaning and contradictory with woodworking questions, SMC would have died a quick death a long time ago.)

So, if I can visualize this then... On the inside of the 14-50, there are 4 wires,

LEG1-A and LEG2-B, and a white neutral and a bare wire. Correct?

How or where would the 120V for my feed roller motor come from when utilizing a (not necessarily recommended) 14-50 plug? It ain't from between the neutral and the ground, so it's got to be from either of the 120V legs and neutral, right? If so, then wouldn't one leg of the 240V would be pulling MORE amps than the other leg? I had never considered an uneven pull like this.

With a 240V 40 amp breaker, which mechanically ties both 120V legs together, is this 40 amps derived from 20 amps from each 120V leg being added together, or, is each 120V leg pulling (a potential) 40 amps?

More questions to come, bases on answers/corrections to these questions.

Thanks!

[Todd Burch]

Huh? What 3 hot wires?

When I asked this, my understanding of the wires coming into the 14-50 was incorrect.

[Todd Burch]

(Please don't think of me as an electrical idiot. I've never taken theory. I'm certainly not an electrician. Asking questions and getting feedback, I consider, to be a 100% risk free adventure. I successfully wired my old shop for 3 phase just fine. From the tone of these electrical related threads on this and other forums, if I had 10 people inspect my work, I suppose I would get 10 flavors of inspection reports, and each of the 10 inspectors would argue with the other 9 inspectors. So, if you want to laugh at my questions, enjoy. If people on this forum were as demeaning and contradictory with woodworking questions, SMC would have died a quick death a long time ago.)

Duane, I didn't mean to unload on you personally. Forgive me, 'cuz it probably came out that way.

Todd

[Chris Friesen]

So, if I can visualize this then... On the inside of the 14-50, there are 4 wires,

LEG1-A and LEG2-B, and a white neutral and a bare wire. Correct?

How or where would the 120V for my feed roller motor come from when utilizing a (not necessarily recommended) 14-50 plug? It ain't from between the neutral and the ground, so it's got to be from either of the 120V legs and neutral, right? If so, then wouldn't one leg of the 240V would be pulling MORE amps than the other leg? I had never considered an uneven pull like this.

With a 240V 40 amp breaker, which mechanically ties both 120V legs together, is this 40 amps derived from 20 amps from each 120V leg being added together, or, is each 120V leg pulling (a potential) 40 amps?

Your view of the wires is correct.

With a 4-wire plug feeding a 120V motor and a 240V motor, one of the hot conductors will see more current than the other, and the neutral will see the same amount of current as the difference between the hots. This can happen on electric stoves, especially ones with 120V plugs built in to them, or 120V oven lights. It can also happen on electric dryers for the same reason.

A 40A 240V breaker will allow up to 40A on each of the hots. If the load is purely 240V then that 40A can be thought of coming from one hot, going through the load, then going back through the other hot. (Of course it's AC, so the direction changes.) If the load is partly 120V and partly 240V, then the 120V portion comes in on one hot, and goes back through the neutral.

If you think about it, your house as a whole is exactly the same. It's fed by 2 hots and a neutral, and you have a separate ground wire. Any imbalance between the demand on the two hots goes back via the neutral.

[Todd Burch]

Thank you Chris - I understand that.

So, since the cutterhead motor can pull 40, and the feed roller can pull 15, then it could be that under max load, the 50 amp breaker will trip then, if using the (not recommended) 14-50. Correct?

[Wade Lippman]

if I can visualize this then... On the inside of the 14-50, there are 4 wires,

LEG1-A and LEG2-B, and a white neutral and a bare wire. Correct?
!

Well, terminals for four wires, yes.
!

How or where would the 120V for my feed roller motor come from when utilizing a (not necessarily recommended) 14-50 plug? It ain't from between the neutral and the ground, so it's got to be from either of the 120V legs and neutral, right? If so, then wouldn't one leg of the 240V would be pulling MORE amps than the other leg? I had never considered an uneven pull like this.
!

Doesn't matter if the legs are unequal; the surplus goes back over the neutral; that is why you need it.!

With a 240V 40 amp breaker, which mechanically ties both 120V legs together, is this 40 amps derived from 20 amps from each 120V leg being added together, or, is each 120V leg pulling (a potential) 40 amps?
!

The breaker can supply 40a (at 120v) on each of the the two breakers. You can call it 80a 120v, or 40a 240v; same thing.

[Ole Anderson]

I am wishing that electrical terminology conventions would list 110 as single phase, 220 as two phase and three phase as, well, three phase. While probably not technically correct, it at least makes sense.