David Savage on Japanese chisels

[Hilton Ralphs]

As per usual, the source is an email sent to me today. This time I will refrain from commenting as I've only recently managed to get all the egg off my face from the last episode.

So far we have looked at two different brands of bevel edged chisels one American and one English. Now we need to consider the Japanese. When these blades became popular in the West I was one of the first to advocate their use. This is because of the hardness of the blade and the sharpness of the cutting edge these ages were as sharp as the cold rolled steel blades that we were used to in the 1980s and 1990s the difference was that they held their edges between five times in eight times longer. we know this because I did a test in my workshop we took a piece of maple and ask an apprentice to pare back with a sharp blade and saw how much he could pare before the blade lost its edge. Not a terribly scientific test I know but it was the best we could do.

These blades are harder I believe, they are closer to the old-fashioned cast steel or crucible steel of the tools made before World War II. These were blades that had been heated and hammered. Their construction is laminated steel they have a hard surface which forms the cutting edge and the bottom of the blade laminated onto a soft steel which forms in the body of the tool. This laminating process requires heating and hammering.

Although these blades if you buy them from a small maker are absolutely superb in their edge holding capacity, I don't think they are the ideal furniture makers chisel. These are carpenters tools made to be struck with a hammer designed to be used on large sections of softwood. Furniture makers need more delicate tools than the standard Japanese chisel. I do have a few of these in my toolbox and I will continue to use them but I mix them with and lighter Western blades.

A problem we have seen is the disappearance of a small highly skilled Japanese blacksmith. Most of the chisels imported to the west are made now in small factories and the quality is not as high as we are used to getting from the old master blacksmith's. When I was in Tokyo I was taken to meet a blacksmith, his workshop was probably smaller than a one car garage. He worked there with his 83-year-old father. I asked him to sell me a marking knife he asked my name and then proceeded to carve into the handle the symbols that indicated that this knife is mine. Then he turned to his father held the blade to his forehead and showed his workmanship to the old man. And the old man gave an appreciative grunt. Dad was the quality control department, the blacksmith was asking the old man "have I upheld the standards and values of your lifes work," the old man was acknowledging his son's achievements and congratulating him on his workmanship without giving him an inch more. All in a grunt.

[Kees Heiden]

Poor apprentice.

[Chris Griggs]

This guys stuff is getting painful to read.

[Steve Thomas]

Painful?
I thought that was an interesting point of view.
or are you talking about Hiltons Ralps? ;-)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Painful?
or are you talking about Hiltons Ralps? ;-)

Yeah probably me. My poker face is often painful to read.

Anyway, to lighten the mood, here is something completely off-topic.

Picture of a lightning storm in my city last week. Johannesburg/Sandton.

joburg_lightning.jpeg

[Richard Shaefer]

I have plenly of pre-war chisels and plane irons.
yeah, they're great and all, but do the edges last 5-8 times longer than my new chisels? not really.
I think the fog of memory is at play here for this guy.
he probably remembers fondly the days before polio vaccines when mean were men and women weren't allowed to vote.

[glenn bradley]

I have plenly of pre-war chisels and plane irons.
yeah, they're great and all, but do the edges last 5-8 times longer than my new chisels? not really.
I think the fog of memory is at play here for this guy.
he probably remembers fondly the days before polio vaccines when mean were men and women weren't allowed to vote.

Hmm, the idea that old tool steel is superior to good modern tool steel is quite romantic but, not very probable. The idea that a bargain chisel of 100 years ago was superior in manufacture to a bargain chisel of today? No that I can get behind ;-)

[Tom McMahon]

Hmm, the idea that old tool steel is superior to good modern tool steel is quite romantic but, not very probable ;-)

I don't know if you are rite or wrong about the past, but I think in this modern world of the big box economy and the constant drive to make it cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, the assumption that anything modern is better is just as romantic. I have both new and old that are good and bad, but mostly it's hard to tell the difference in use, some old works better, some new works better. In general I think there are more good old tools than good new tools available at an affordable price. For the most part the high end, high price, new tools are aimed at the retired hobbyist wood worker.

[David Weaver]

I'd probably guess that if you were doing something like chopping sockets, a good japanese chisel would last about 5 times as long as something that was made in the 1980s (like a 1980s sorby or marples). I've had both. The japanese chisels hold up in mallet work better than anything other than powder metal chisels, and there are things about them that I like better than newer alloys.

by 5 times as long, I mean if you were doing work at a pretty steady pace and not babying the process, the japanese chisels would probably have about the same amount of wear after 5 sockets that a blue chip would have after 1. It might actually be better than that.

Where the japanese tools don't fare as favorably in performance improvement is plane irons. I'd hazard a guess that I get fewer feet of planing with all of my japanese irons except for one - if the order of business is routine planing and the comparison is a properly done Lie Nielsen iron. The one that I get a similar amount of use from is an alloy not unlike A2 steel. Good japanese tools fare better when impact causes the failure, and better than vintage western steel (they are harder and have more carbon) when it's planing and the same wood is being planed, and less to about as good as A2. That doesn't count the powder metal irons or super blue. I never used super blue enough to tell how it fares against diemaking steels in the west for planing, but the equivalents of M2 and M4 would fare better.

Vintage western chisels were made for professionals for the most part and are better than 1980s stuff unless you get one that was abused or rehardened, a little softer than the new boutique stuff (almost certainly so that it would be nice to sharpen with oilstones, as they could've hardened it any way they wanted to) and not as long at edge-holding as japanese chisels but easier to sharpen than anything else.

Vintage razors and files will generally give a lesson to the notion that all of the modern diemaking steels are better than the vintage steels were. They are more resistant to planing wear, and probably much more stable in hardening and tempering, but I'd rather have only vintage steels vs. only new ones if I had to make a choice.

That's my thoughts from wasting a lot of money.

[dan sherman]

modern tool steels are vastly superior to older tool steels with the caveat that it was produced by a reputable manufacture. My father has been in the steel industry longer than I have been alive, and he would tell you that the quality control process are much better now than they where 50 or 100 years ago.

David's points of views seem to be those of a slightly delusional and semi elitist individual. It seems like he automatically assumes if something isn't old, expensive, or hand crafted by a "master" it's crap.

[David Weaver]

Which david is delusional, me? I could be!!

There is a difference between better and more consistent. Steel is definitely more consistent now than it was 135 years ago. Actually, I guess that's probably true for any bessemer process steel, it's more consistent. But most modern steel I've used isn't as fine on a stone as a vintage crucible steel razor, and those razors aren't laminated, nor are the butcher or buck chisels that I have for the most part, but I haven't seen anything modern like them.

I don't agree with Savage that the old laminated irons and chisels are similar to the good japanese makers - the irons from the good japanese makers harder. Out of maybe 50 vintage chisels that I have, one has been similar to a japanese tool in hardness, and I'd bet it was defective to be like that. Nobody would want to sharpen it with novaculite stones.

[george wilson]

I know David pretty well,and he is not an elitist. He does shave daily with straight razors.

Although he has rather disagreed with my fairly long post,I'm not getting exercised about it,or calling names. Last time out,you were on MY case,Dan. Can't remember what it was about. Guess we agree now?

Good old tools DO exist. I am speaking in generalities. Science,chemistry,and manufacturing control ARE better now than they ever have been. It STILL remains for tool makers to choose(and pay for) the best materials to use. The best limits their markets as their tools cost more. How many are going to fork over $400.00 for a set of chisels? Not even the professionals I know!(One guy in the Millwork Shop was using one of those HORRIBLE rasp/chisels!!) And,someone had GIVEN it to him at that!! Others were made from old planer blades. They relied upon machinery to do their work. I have also seen pros who had hundreds of fine old carving tools. They made carved,fine furniture in antique styles. There are a lot more of the OTHER kind of pros out there!

I read about a great old razor used by all the miners in a gold camp in the 1849 gold rush. It was sacrificed to science in the 1980's,and found to be cleaner than modern aircraft steel. A product that was used by everyone daily,like a straight razor did cause stiff competition among makers for survival. This particular razor,though,was so much better than others in the camp,everyone borrowed it.

[dan sherman]

Which david is delusional, me? I could be!!

Lol not you, I was referring to Savage.

[Greg Portland]

There is a difference between better and more consistent. Steel is definitely more consistent now than it was 135 years ago. Actually, I guess that's probably true for any bessemer process steel, it's more consistent. But most modern steel I've used isn't as fine on a stone as a vintage crucible steel razor, and those razors aren't laminated, nor are the butcher or buck chisels that I have for the most part, but I haven't seen anything modern like them.

IMO this is due to market conditions. Is the straight razor market big enough where a single manufacturer could hire a metallurgist to concoct the best possible steel? I'm don't believe the *new* razor market could support such an effort, especially because there are a bunch of small manufacturers (versus 1-2 major players).

Edit: I should add that I use a SR as well (and also a DE)... it's easier to just buy a good used razor because so many exist out there right now.

[Mel Fulks]

Quality is more easily accurately controlled. That does not mean it always benefits the buyer. It's often used to deliberately adhere to the lowest possible standard. Common NAILS are not as good as they used to be.