Need advice on heating my new (rental) shop

[John Loftis]

Hi folks, I'm about to move into a new shop. It's a 30' X 50' footprint with 14' ceilings, large garage door on each end of the 50' stretch. It's in the middle of a block of identical shops. Totally uninsulated. I am renting space here on a month to month basis, so adding insulation is not realistic. I know that insulation is the right answer. But we've got to play the hand we've been dealt, in this case.

We might get 20 'cold' days a year here (Dallas), where it would be pretty unpleasant to work without some sort of heating. So I wanted to ask your collective advice on what the best option might be. Aside from heating the shop, I guess there's also an issue of fumes/ventilation. I see an 80,000 btu Procom heater going on sale for $180... it is advertised as 'Kerosene/mixed fuel.' I guess I'm a little nervous about being warm but unconscious from the fumes...

Any advice on the type of heater I should get? What btu for a shop that size? What about gasses/venting?

Thanks much.

John

[phil harold]

If you dont vent the fumes you will have a humidity problem
propane, kerosene when burning add quantities of water in to the air which will condensate out later

so you can be warm wet and dead

[Chris Friesen]

What's a "cold" day? I'm up in Saskatchewan, a cold day is -40.

Given that you have no insulation, how about a portable radiant heater for where you're working, and an insulated room-within-a-room for finishing, glue-ups, etc. You could keep the inner room at "room temperature" and keep the rest of the shop just warm enough to work in.

[Joe Hillmann]

If you plan to use the shop every day and be comfortable it may be cheaper in the long run to insulate. There are online calculators to figure out your energy use before and after adding insulation. For me insulation would pay for itself in lower energy use in 4 months in the winter. Of course the pay back time changes by location so it may not be worth it for you.


Edit. Also going with a ventless heater in a shop that size probably will not be a CO danger or cause condensation issues. Most vent less heaters specify the minimum size room they can be safely used in.

[Mark Bolton]

As Phil said, any un-vented option has moisture issues but if your only talking 20 days, and likely those are not in one shot but scattered out, you would likely be ok even if the shop was fairly tight (which being un-insulated isnt likely).

There is a good size top shop near here which see's many many more cold days than that and they heat with a massive salamander. Im talking giant, like perhaps 30" in diameter but they keep the place pretty cool (I would say freezing compared to my shop). Again, its a matter of duration and frequency in my opinion. The bad thing about those bulk heaters is they of course create very warm areas while others are completely cold. Not a good environment for people working as they want to gravitate to the front of the heater and feel cold the instant they walk away.

I would guess whatever option you go with youll want to be able to take it with you and have minimal installation/expansion issues if your month to month and not wanting to invest in the space.

If its infrequent and just taking the chill off any number of un-vented optioins starting with salamander/mushroom heaters which will have the fume issue, are extremely noisy, and of course moisture. Unvented infrareds beyond that could help with providing warm zones/areas to work.

Beyond that I would think your cheapest next step would be installing a couple of either vented blower units (modine type) or IR's as long as the landlord will allow you to remove them and plug the flue holes when and if you leave.

Its too bad the property owner isnt willing to work with you a bit on improving the space, but as you say, you have to work with the hand your dealt. At least your only talking 20 days.

[Gene E Miller]

Greetings & Salutations:

I have a shop located in east central Arkansas. My total building is 30 x 50 and the part I
use for the shop is 20 x 30 fully insulated. My location does require me to use heat as I also
have running water in my shop. As an example the last few night have been in the 20's
with daytime temps only in the upper 30's. I have a 25,000 btu propane infrared heater that
is not vented and have never had a moisture issue. I on the coldest nights I keep the heater
on the lowest setting and usually have to turn it off if I am working in the shop.

Maybe because part of my shop is not heated I get enough humidity seeping into my work
area that I don't get a problem. Just m2cw.

[johnny means]

I've got a very similar situation. 34' x 75' and 14' . My shop happens to have a gas heater with during to distribute the air. Great at making heat, but pretty much wasted with that much ceiling height. I can't really make any knowledgeable hearing recommendation. But, my neighbors and I have found that one of the best investments you can make are ceiling fans. Running them on low, in the upward blowing direction keeps warm air distributed throughout the entire shop and not pooled on the ceiling. Just running the fans without turning on the heat, stars of heating cost for several weeks. Of course, the fans are also great in the summer.

[Mark Bolton]

Johnny is spot on with the fans. That has been on my list for a while now even with 10' ceilings. Massive amounts of heat are lost at the ceiling. I need to move that one to the top of the list pronto.

[John Loftis]

I've got a very similar situation. 34' x 75' and 14' . My shop happens to have a gas heater with during to distribute the air. Great at making heat, but pretty much wasted with that much ceiling height. I can't really make any knowledgeable hearing recommendation. But, my neighbors and I have found that one of the best investments you can make are ceiling fans. Running them on low, in the upward blowing direction keeps warm air distributed throughout the entire shop and not pooled on the ceiling. Just running the fans without turning on the heat, stars of heating cost for several weeks. Of course, the fans are also great in the summer.

Thanks for the advice, guys. A couple cheap ceiling fans wouldn't be a big deal. I've got to get up in the I-beams anyway to hang some shop lights, so can do the fans while I'm at it.

I'm thinking we'll have a couple little heaters at our work tables and then some kind of big heater that we blast on and off periodically when we need to. I think a lot of smaller commercial shops in Texas use propane torpedo-type heaters, but I'm not positive about that. One buddy told me, "We use the propane heaters, and when the first guy starts getting dizzy, we open up the garage a bit to let in some fresh air." I'm sure that's an OSHA approved strategy.

[Steve Kohn]

I also agree with getting the air circulating. I have a Modine Hot Dawg in my 30X32 shop. The shop also has 11 foot ceilings. I also have a Jet air filter on the opposite end of the shop. I find that if I've turned the thermostat down to 40 degrees overnight and then turn it up to 65 during the day it takes about 2 hours before the heat starts to cycle. With the air filter running and circulating the air it cuts that time down to 30 minutes. It makes a huge difference.

[Mark Bolton]

I'm sure that's an OSHA approved strategy.

Your catching on...

[John Loftis]

What's a "cold" day? I'm up in Saskatchewan, a cold day is -40.
.

Chris, this will depress you: http://www.weather.com/weather/wxcli...graph/USTX0327
Our average LOW in the Winter is 40 degrees. Our average HIGH is around 60 degrees.

[Steven Hardy]

There is a type of heater I used to have called a drywallers heater. It runs on propane and is about 60000 btu output. I would be careful of using it too close to sawdust as it has three burners inside a metal can. When I was building my house, I would fire it up for an hour...then shut it off for an hour.It would kill a 20 lb propane bottle in just a few hours of straight operation.

[Stephen Cherry]

Maybe scan craigslist for an electric furnace? The first thing to do is see what the other shops are using.

[Leo Graywacz]

Your shop is about the same footprint as mine (25x60), my ceilings are taller, 24'. My building is insulated, but not really that well. I am a middle unit like you. I have sheetrock walls between unit that has r19 in them. My walls and ceiling/roof is the standard white plastic bag with r13 in it.

Now that all that is said I live in new england and it gets cold here. Not crazy cold. Winter is 15F at night and 25F during the day. Lows just below zero and highs in the mid 40s.

I have a propane Modine heater that vents outside. It is 175,000 BTU. In the winter I set it at 45F for overnight and it doesn't start coming on at night until January. But in the morning it is 45F and it takes about 3/4 hour to get it to 64F which is where I keep it set on average.

So that should let you know how your shop might react without insulation. 80,000 BTU might do it for you. If it gets cold enough it will take quite a while for the shop to warm up. If you are calling 60F cold then........