Ae you soured on bevel up?

[Zach Dillinger]

Your beloved LN No. 9 begs to differ


(I know, I know we're talking about BU bench planes, but I do recall you mentioning that you like to pull your No. 9 in for things other than shooting)

You're right. I do treat my #9 like a bench plane in a lot of situations. I never sweetened on bevel up planes that were intended for bench plane use

[Chris Griggs]

You're right. I do treat my #9 like a bench plane in a lot of situations. I never sweetened on bevel up planes that were intended for bench plane use

I'd venture to guess that even though it was intended to be used for bench plane tasks as much as it was for shooting, I probably use my LA jack for about the same proportion of shooting vs bench work, as you do your No. 9. I quite like the BUs as "utility/trimming" planes, but I'll likely stick with BD for stock prep and smoothing. We'll see if owning the small BUS changes that, but I'm thinking even that I'll mostly call in to duty as a large block/small shooter as opposed to a finish smoother.

I feel so naked without a chipbreaker (Hey Dave, this could be you new signature line).

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Well, as much as I tend to prefer BD planes, I just got cyber Monday'ed and bought a small BUS, so I guess I'm not totally soured on bevel ups. That's the last one though. I'll just have that and my LA jack. All other bench planes will remain bevel down, just as nature intended.

I was thinking of picking one of those up this morning when I saw it in the list - the "sold out" banner hadn't been pegged across the picture like all the shoulder planes I had been thinking about picking up, but when I went to the page to purchase, it was sold out. Now I know who to blame!

[Chris Griggs]

I was thinking of picking one of those up this morning when I saw it in the list - the "sold out" banner hadn't been pegged across the picture like all the shoulder planes I had been thinking about picking up, but when I went to the page to purchase, it was sold out. Now I know who to blame!

Sorry, though in my defense, there were still some there after I bought mine. Really you should blame Hilton, becasue if he hadn't bought the last large shoulder I would have probably bought that instead of the SBUS and there would have been one left for you.

Actually periodically throughout the day, after all the sold out banners were up, some of the sold out items would pop up for sale again for just a few minutes. I don't know if that's a system error or cancelled orders but I've been refreshing the large shoulder plane periodically throughout the day in case it pops up again. It's for the best that the large hasn't popped back up though! I saw the med shoulder come up for sale again in the middle of the afternoon, but I already have one of those. Its like shopping for concert tickets!


Tell you what, if I don't like my SBUS, I'll sell it to you for 15% off of retail plus shipping

[Winton Applegate]

I don't understand why people want to mess with changing blades to different pitches so they can use one plane to do a couple things. Do any of you seriously only use one plane at a time on your bench? Mine gets a few on it every time I use them, because it's more efficient to just have several set up differently than it is to readjust constantly.

I am a huge fan of having a range of blades set up for different hardness/figure of wood and for hogging wood off and for finish planing.
That said here is my every day bench and what it tends to have on it.

With these three planes I could make a rocket ship.
I have jointers but don't use them.
I have bevel down jack
but use the bevel up instead.
Between the crazy back lash of the primitive (read why do people still put up with that) bevel down blade control and the waste of time (granted not much time but why even bother if it isn't needed for anything) chip breaker I have no use for the bevel down jack.

So that's it really. Of all the tons of planes I have of many different types from Japanese to woodies with the modern spring assisted blade control mechanisms and traditional bevel down Stanley these are what work.

I suppose I am suppose to type "for me".

I get all the others out and have fun using them, exploring their limitations and idiosyncrasies and how to work around them but if I have a big planing job of hard stuff that takes me to my physical limits. These guys geeeeter done.

PS: if you look close blades are not in two of the planes; I stopped to sharpen and wound up taking the photo after pulling the blades out.

[Chris Griggs]

Between the crazy back lash of the primitive (read why do people still put up with that) bevel down blade control and the waste of time (granted not much time but why even bother if it isn't needed for anything) chip breaker I have no use for the bevel down jack.

Now now Winton, preferences and niche needs of those who work masochistically hard woods are all well and good, but lets not start this again....oooooh for shame!!!

You know as well as I do the chipbreakers are most certainly not a waste of time. In fact, when you consider that a chipbreaker lets you maintain a relatively low enough angle of attack whilst still fending off tearout, and realize that you can put a shiny surface woods ranging from the softest crap BORG pine to any number of figured hardwoods ALL WITHOUT CHANGING BLADES you will realize the chipbreakers is actually a time saver. (Of course, if we were really interested in saving time we'd sell all our beautiful planes and buy huge drum sanders)

[Erwin Graween]

Hi,

To be honest and give a straight answer. Both types of planes can achieve great results. But there are differences that can be either pros or cons. And one question for which I don't have the answer (or at least I'm not sure) --> see chipbreaker below.

BV UP

Pros :
You can set different angles as much as you want by grinding the blade. Interesting for low angles that can't be achieved with BV Down. Useful as one Jack plane with several blades covers multiple uses (shooting, etc).
Blades are thick so no chatter.

Cons :
Harder to get a curve on a blade. Very well explained by Derek. Though I think it's only a matter when you set the curve radius.
No chip breaker. But I never experienced I needed one. Some people say it helps with difficult grain. My personnal thought is that if it's probably true, the effect is less thant good sharpness and correct bevel angle.

BV DOWN

Pros:
Tons of them on the second hand market (also mean easier to find spare parts).
Easier to set a radiused blade.
Chipbreaker (if really it helps).

Cons:
Lighter blades.
Can't achieve low angles.


I hope it helps. That's the way I see it.

Regards,
Graween.

[Kees Heiden]

Hi,

To be honest and give a straight answer. Both types of planes can achieve great results. But there are differences that can be either pros or cons. And one question for which I don't have the answer (or at least I'm not sure) --> see chipbreaker below.

BV UP

Pros :
You can set different angles as much as you want by grinding the blade. Interesting for low angles that can't be achieved with BV Down. Useful as one Jack plane with several blades covers multiple uses (shooting, etc).
Blades are thick so no chatter.

Cons :
Harder to get a curve on a blade. Very well explained by Derek. Though I think it's only a matter when you set the curve radius.
No chip breaker. But I never experienced I needed one. Some people say it helps with difficult grain. My personnal thought is that if it's probably true, the effect is less thant good sharpness and correct bevel angle.

BV DOWN

Pros:
Tons of them on the second hand market (also mean easier to find spare parts).
Easier to set a radiused blade.
Chipbreaker (if really it helps).

Cons:
Lighter blades.
Can't achieve low angles.


I hope it helps. That's the way I see it.

Regards,
Graween.

Some extra pro's of the double iron, bevel up plane:
- A 45 degree bedding angle, a chipbreaker with a 40 to 45 degree angle on the front, very close to the edge, is lighter to push then a steeply bedded plane.
- The 45 degree plane has less wear on the edge.
- Wooden planes with this configuration are available en masse, which means the ultimate in plane feeling. Low angle wooden planes are too fragile and high angle wooden planes are rare or expensive.
- For me personally the plane with the chipbreaker just feels better.

Regarding the thin blades, that's a feature! Makes for much less work when sharpening. And on all these types of wood which aren't crazy hard they work perfectly well.

BTW, chipbreakers work. They work very well indeed. The con is that it is a bit fiddly. Either you get used to that or not.

[Prashun Patel]

I had a chance to increase the bevel on my bevel up smoother. It does help.

I'm still getting the LN #4...

[Derek Cohen]

- A 45 degree bedding angle, a chipbreaker with a 40 to 45 degree angle on the front, very close to the edge, is lighter to push then a steeply bedded plane.
- The 45 degree plane has less wear on the edge.

Hi Kees

If you are comparing a 45 degree BD to a "steeply bedded" BD plane, then I would agree. But not if you were comparing to a BU plane. The low centre of effort of the BU plane makes a significant difference in reducing the "lightness to push".

I am not sure where you get your information about BU vs BD blade wear? A 45 degree bed BD plane consistently demonstrated significantly more wear than a 12 degree BU bed plane in my recent shooting plane comparison.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hilton Ralphs]

Has anyone considered that the crafty Prashun with nearly 7000 posts started this thread just more than 24 hours before the Lee Valley Cyber Monday sale to lesson the stampede on BU planes?

So Prashun, how many planes did you buy? Go on, fess up.

[Prashun Patel]

Nefarious plot foiled ! Seriously, I would have been the first to gloat. The only thing they had left by the time i woke up at 6am was the small bu smoother which I already own. I drooled over the large shoulder and jointer only to see that they had been snatched up. LV could at least have the decency to raise the visible sale price once they get sold out. That way I wouldn't feel so bad being late to the party.

[Chris Hachet]

Hello Prashun,

What angle blade did you use? If you were using the 25 degree blade then perhaps that is why you got the tear-out. A higher angle like the 38 or 50 degree blade, in proper circumstances, would give less tear-out. That's the short version of the story.

I own the Veritas jointer, jack, smoother, and shooting plane in the LA series. I much prefer them. I have all the basic bevel down planes: 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7- mostly corrugated, as well as a bronze LN no 2 that I love. After trying the bevel up I was hooked. The reasons I love the bevel up are as follows:

• No chip breaker to mess with
• easy blade changes
• one plane plus four blades gives you the equivalent of four planes
• Less "fussy" to set up than a high angle
• less expensive!

I was ever skeptical, but after trying bevel up I have not used my bevel down planes since. I will likely use the No 2 when making wood surfboards because of the size and it works well on lightly curved surfaces. I plan to take the Stanley/Bailey's out now and then to give them some love.

I am really thinking that a Bevel Up jack plane may well be my next purchase, probably from LV because of the PMV11. If not, LN. I work a lot of hard Maple and quarter sawn white oak, so being able to pull the blade out, hone it quickly, and get back to work would be the largest contributing factor.

[David Weaver]

you will realize the chipbreakers is actually a time saver.

I would say substantially superior when all things are considered - well, except for LN who couldn't get the chipbreaker drilled right on some of their planes so that it could actually make it to the edge - that and their desire to peddle a bunch of frogs instead of advising beginners of something relatively simple.

I used to be in love with the lack of backlash on the LN frogs (the 8 has some backlash, though, IME), but the reality is that when you're dimensioning entirely by hand, there really isn't that much adjustment being made, and when there is, 75% or more of it is in the direction where there's already tension (i.e., if you adjusted for more depth the last time, you're probably doing it again and there's no backlash).

It's like the jack rabbet planes, the arguments are enticing when they're in text, but when you're at the bench, nothing really materializes.

[Chris Hachet]

In short… Unless you're working with those bloody awful australian woods (where their only good quality is their resistance to termites) either bevel up or bevel down will work just as well as each other.

This is pretty much my take on it....probably a matter of personal preference and what you are comfortable with.