Ae you soured on bevel up?

[Chris Griggs]

It looks like I have to get myself a real BU plane someday, just to know what all the hoopla is about. Any tips for a nice versatile one that doesn't break the bank too much?

Well given that they are pretty much LV and LN (I'm pretending the new stanley doesn't exist) none are cheap. But I would think this one would be the best all around-er to compare to say a bailey no. 4, and its not too expensive (relatively). I don't own the one I just linked to and technically the LA Jack is more "versitile" since it can be called in as a small jointer/panel plane, but for smoothing and trimming (and for comparison to other smoothers) the No. 4 sized one seems like a good option.

[Tony Zaffuto]

One of these days I'm going to have to start measuring the angles I use! I'm thinking the angles may be 25 or may be 30 degrees and I don't differentiate much between sharpening for BU or BD, as I free hand. I also don't pay attention to intervals between sharpening: if I perceive a need to sharpen, I do and generally (at least for chisels) I strop pretty regularly.

What I do pay attention to is how long a new tool's edge lasts and what I need to do to adjust it, to achieve the sharpening I'm after for the wood I use. For example, I have one new LV PMV11 chisel. I wasn't satisfied with how it cut when new or how sharp it felt, after initial honing. I lowered the angle a scoosh and it made all the difference in the world.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I have to get myself a real BU plane someday. Any tips for a nice versatile one that doesn't break the bank too much?

Yes, in exactly 364 days time there will be this really cool sale. Get up early.

[Graham Haydon]

Chris, why are we pretending the new Stanley does not exist? Does it have some issues?

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, my are we pretending the new Stanley does not exist? Does it have some issues?

I just can't speak to its quality in any detail. I have heard it has issues, but I've also heard good reports. I've held it and it seemed like one of those tools that you might get a decent one or you might get a bad one...frankly for the price the Woodriver planes (of which I own one) seem much much nicer (but they only make BD).

Mainly, I just don't want to recommend a tool that I cannot comfortably attest to the quality (good or bad)... it may be just fine in most cases, but I don't know, and can't really speak to it. I do know the LN and LV BU planes to be excellent though.

[Chris Vandiver]

Same company that makes Woodriver planes;


http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Quangsheng_No._62_Low_Angle_Jack_Plane.html

[Chris Griggs]

Same company that makes Woodriver planes;


http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Quangsheng_No._62_Low_Angle_Jack_Plane.html

Interesting. Given the popularity of LA Jacks I'm suprised Woodcraft has decided to carry them. I bet they'll pop up there sooner than later.

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks Mr Griggs, thought it would be something like that. It is surprising than the Woodcraft have not launched the LAJ that we can get in the UK. It looks to be a nicer item than the Stanley.

[Kees Heiden]

I looked around. Ln or lv would be around 250 euro. But the Chinese 62 can be had for 129 euro. That's more like it and it looks a lot better then the Stanley. Oh well, I'll think about it.

[David Weaver]

Nobody would put a 25 degree bevel on a bevel down plane. I wonder how the test would turn out if you put a 32 degree final bevel on the A2 iron. The cutting angle of the BD plane is fixed, so there is no reason to generate great big clearance amounts, especially if it's at the expense of reason.

Hi David

My tests did include both 25- and 30 degree bevel angles. The 25 degree A2 blade in BU mode outlasted a 30 degree A2 blade in BD mode. It's all here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tingPlane.html

Now I will go to bed!

Regards from Perth

Derek

It's interesting how well the smoothcut iron held up. I would assume that's due to its hardness, though the V11 iron doesn't seem (to me) to have the same hardness advantage, so it can't only be hardness.

I've never shot 60 strokes in a row with the LN jointer without doing something else between them, so I'll likely never find out if the issue with your LN iron is hardness related with all A2 irons (and mine), or if it's that particular batch. I haven't been particularly satisfied with A2 irons at 30 degrees, though, there is still small chipout at that.

[Chris Griggs]

...a confession and epiphany from a loyal BD plane user...

Well, I started to write this as a PM to my buddy Dave Weaver, who helped me and many of us unlock the magic of the chipbreaker. Whose guidance took me from someone who preferred BD planes but was very "BU curious" to someone who would plump for BD every time the BD vs BU question was brought up in terms of anything other than shooting. But as I wrote it I realized, it was best suited for this thread.....

I am slowly over time getting to like to use my BU jack more and more for things other than shooting. The plane that once felt awkwardly balanced has begun to feel precise....the upright tote that once hurt my wrist is beginning to feel in line with my stroke....the 4 finger grip that just felt flat out WRONG has started to feel as normal as a 3 fingered one...and the lack of the ingenious invention that is the chipbreaker, the thing that took me from someone who just sorta preferred BD planes to someone who stood proudly holding the banner for the BD army, isn't being missed much...

I've had my BU jack about 2 years now....and slowly, VERY slowly, it has crept into my hands more and more often to be used for things other than shooting...which was the sole purpose of its purchase.

I started a new project last night...a little bench seat/storage bench/window seat. I was prepping the leg stock which at about 2 ft. long x 2 in. wide made a jack size plane a good tool for following my coarsely set transitional jack. Usually, I would have grabbed my MF No. 15 (5 1/2) or my No. 6 for this but this whole conversation prompted me to grab my LA Jack. Now, of course, I have used my LA Jack for such tasks before, but I've always gone back to my BD planes pretty quickly. This time (and lately in general though), I stuck with the LA Jack, and in doing a lot of work with it began to realize, GASP, that its very very different feel from my BD planes...that 4 finger grip and that low "center of effort" Derek always talks about, is something that I have become comfortable with,and dare I say, have started to like very very much..

I, for the first time last night (well, first time while sober), had a moment where I imagined a shop where maybe my main users would be BU. Not becasue of tearout or edge life or other minutia that really aren't that relevant to mostly tame walnut, cherry, and maple I work, but because the feel and ease with which my BU jack was gliding through the wood last night made me want to keep using it...because, honestly, as much as I love chipbreakers and think they are absolutely genius, there isn't much in the way of tearout I get that I can't prevent by any number of methods... Because, when it was time to rehone...it really was nice to so mindlessly just pop out the thick iron, rub it around on a stone for second, and pop it back in (not that setting a CB really adds any time or real effort, but I do appreciate the simplicity of the BU single iron, and subjectively feels more convenient).

All this is too say, that I'm realizing the minutia that make one plane perform better than the other in more extreme situations...just isn't all that important to the woodworking I enjoy doing. So while I can and do get very wrapped up in that minutia, when push comes to shove, what I care about...what wins my dollars, is subjective comfort and ease of use. As I get more and more used to the different feel of my BU Jack, the subjective comfort and ease of use improves, and the more I can envision buying more BU planes where I had once longed for only BD. I've long wished for an LN No. 7, but cleaning up my edge with my LA jack last night, I for the first time thought to myself..."hey maybe I would like an LN 7 1/2 or LV BU jointer...this whole low center of gravity thing/and 4 fingered grip isn't throwing me off anymore, and darn it, it feels pretty good."

Its funny, after all this when I look at pictures of the LN/LV BU bench planes on the websites I still see special purpose planes...not general use bench planes. And even as I write this and reread through this post, I am thinking..."Chris, what the H E double hockey sticks are you talking about???!!! There's nowhere to point your finger on those blasted things....you strongly prefer BD planes". But even though my bias is telling me one thing my experience is starting to tell me another...that these things really are nice to use.

Will I abandon all BD planes?...no, of course not...Will I abandon mt wish for an LN No. 7...probably not....and for a finish smoother I still have a hard time picturing using anything other than a BD bailey style plane with a closely set chipbreaker. But my feelings are changing, and in all likelihood they will lead to have a larger mix of BD and BU planes that I ever thought I would. My new LV SBUS will should arrive this week...I wonder where it will take me.

(P.S. Dave, will you still be my friend if I start to prefer BU planes?)

[Derek Cohen]

Derek. To your second point. IIRC, you tested longevity comparing the higher angled LN 51 w/CB against a lower angled BU LV shooter right? Wasn't your conclusion/hypothesis that the decreased amount of effort/force needed when using the lower angle to shoot endgrain contributed to better edge retention?

Hi Chris, here is the reply I promised.

One important conclusion reached was that blade orientation had a significant part to play in the longevity of their edges. Regardless of the bevel angle itself, the higher bed of the BD blade created greater force on its edge, and this appeared to be responsible for its increased wear. Conversely, the lower bed angle of the BU blade reduced the force on its edge. For this reason, an A2 blade with a 25 degree bevel in a BU plane was able to last longer than a A2 blade with a higher 30 degree bevel in a BD plane.

This isn't really applicable to what Kees is saying. He's speaking of planing long grain with a 45-50 degree blade with CB vs 55 degree or higher w/o CB. If in fact it is true that the less effort, lower angle of attack=longer edge longevity than he is correct that the BD plane with CB would last longer than the BU at a high angle. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, perhaps even the high blade bevel angle would offset things and bring the BU back to top for retention, but it would need to be tested. I don't know that answer, but I'm not sure you can extend your shooting plane test to this situation,it seems like an over extension of the results.

Up till a year or so ago I was convinced that a BD blade outlasted a BU blade in planing face grain. That was a result of the wear bevel created on the back of the blade. This has been documented by Steve Elliott. Then I began using the Ruler Trick with BU blades. This creates a low (2/3 degree) backbevel where the wear bevel is situated. Now I cannot say that the BU blades last as long or longer than a BD blade - I have not made any comparisons, and neither has Steve. My subjective impression is that the BU blades with the RT last longer than without the RT. Certainly they are quicker to hone.

These BU vs BD comparisons get out of hand. I do not take sides. My original post on this threat praised both equally. They do feel different in the hand, and in use there are pros and cons. Use whichever floats your boat. What gets up my nose are comments that put one or the other down without foundation. Then I will pipe up - not to support BU planes, but to put the record straight, whichever plane is involved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

(P.S. Dave, will you still be my friend if I start to prefer BU planes?)

kids these days

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for your thoughts Derek. The ruler trick thing is interesting. I remembered you saying that you preferred to use the ruler trick on BU planes becasue of the wear bevel, but I did not recall that you thought it increased edge retention. I do like the ruler trick but I stopped using it because I kept losing that dang ruler..un doing the rt can be a pain if one is not judicious in how they use it so I am reluctant to go back to it...but again it is something that I feel gets blades sharper, easier, and so your feelings on edge longevity do make it tempting to start using again on my BU planes anyway (its something I've gone back and forth with a lot).

Anyway, that's a whole other loaded debate. I think this conversation has been much more interesting and productive than many of the BD vs BU threads that pop up periodically, but I agree these do very often get out of hand...as you said previously, if you're getting a nice surface, the wood doesn't care if its BU or BD. Your right, they do feel very very different in hand, and if your used to one kind the other kind can feel out of sorts. That was the biggest surprise for me the first time I used BU plane...how very different it felt.

[Chris Griggs]

kids these days

I'll take that as a yes!

On the plus side for you, if I become a BU fanatic you might be able to weasel my MF 15 away from me (but probably not...its just too cool to part with )