Can I run 3 10 GA THHN and 4 12 GA THHN in 1/2" EMT?

[Steve Meliza]

I am sure city wants you to pull permit on everything but do I really need a permit to pull a line on the same wall with the sub panel which is 10 feet away from the outlet?

Not everything, you can change out a light bulb without a permit. It's not the distance or the number of circuits that matters, it's doing the work in a safe manner. I will never live in CA so personally I'm not at risk of being harmed by your work. I won't condone un-permitted work, but I will try to help you get it done to code.

[Phil Thien]

Not everything, you can change out a light bulb without a permit. It's not the distance or the number of circuits that matters, it's doing the work in a safe manner. I will never live in CA so personally I'm not at risk of being harmed by your work. I won't condone un-permitted work, but I will try to help you get it done to code.

I don't have a problem with pulling permits and having work inspected. But there seems to be a trend where the homeowner isn't allowed to perform ANY of the work, even if a permit has been pulled (where an inspection is expected).

I think that is counter-productive, and will ultimately lead to more problems/fires, as people perform work themselves and refuse to even pull a permit, knowing it wouldn't pass only because the work wasn't performed by a licensed electrician.

[Mike Nguyen]

Incorrect, split circuit (edisson) is a common method of providing 120 and 240 volt circuits from the same feeder.

My shop is wired this way, it's great.

I put a duplex 240V receptacle and a duplex 120V receptacle in a 4 inch square box at several locations around the shop, works great..........Rod.

Hi Rod,
I asked the guy at Home Depot if I could put a 220V and 110V outlet in the same box and he said no I can't. I guess sometimes you just need to pull permit so the guy from the city can tell you what you can or cannot do.

[Steve Meliza]

I don't have a problem with pulling permits and having work inspected. But there seems to be a trend where the homeowner isn't allowed to perform ANY of the work, even if a permit has been pulled (where an inspection is expected).

I think that is counter-productive, and will ultimately lead to more problems/fires, as people perform work themselves and refuse to even pull a permit, knowing it wouldn't pass only because the work wasn't performed by a licensed electrician.

I suppose that depends on your local inspectors. My electrical permit was about $60 for an entire garage/workshop re-do with added sub-panel. The inspector had me make one minor change to the sub-panel grounding and was impressed with the rest of my work. I take pride in doing my work to industry best practices, not code minimums and they take notice. Later I asked a licensed electrician about the grounding issue that the inspector had me change and he said he's never been required to do something like that, but it wouldn't hurt anything either.

[Phil Thien]

I suppose that depends on your local inspectors.

In more and more communities, there is no discussion. No license = no permit.

And that is shortsighted, IMHO.

[Julie Moriarty]

Incorrect, split circuit (edisson) is a common method of providing 120 and 240 volt circuits from the same feeder.

My shop is wired this way, it's great.

I put a duplex 240V receptacle and a duplex 120V receptacle in a 4 inch square box at several locations around the shop, works great..........Rod.

This is incorrect, and it is specifically covered under NEC 210.4 for Multiwire Branch Circuits. In the past you were able to use a pair of single-pole breakers if no single yoke contained both poles, but this has been changed and a 2-pole breaker is required in all cases.

Well around here if you install a two pole, 240v breaker in your panel and tap a 120v circuit off it, you will be red tagged. Every time. And your foreman will read you the riot act for being an idiot if he or she catches you doing it.

But I have seen where this was done and the 120v receptacle on the 240v breaker melted and almost caused a fire cuz the breaker didn't trip. If there was two fuses feeding it then yeah, you've got reliable circuit protection, but not so with breakers. But everything is breakers now and that's why we don't tap a 120V circuit off a two pole breaker.

The NEC is not gospel. It's a guideline. Some municipalities follow it to the T, many modify it and some write their own code because they had too many issues with the NEC to amend it. Those of us in the trade learn from experience what works and what doesn't. That's why we start with the NEC and make changes as necessary so the system is safe.

[John Lanciani]

So in your case Steve I agree with you. What about all of the unencorporated areas of the country that don't have a permitting or inspection process? Or what about me in Massachusetts where I'm allowed to do my own electrical work under a homeowners permit but almost every local inspector (mine included) refuses to inspect work not done by licensed electricians even though it is perfectly legal? As I said, my homeowners policy does not contain language like yours apparently does. I suspect that the range of variables is as wide as our country.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Hi Rod,
I asked the guy at Home Depot if I could put a 220V and 110V outlet in the same box and he said no I can't. I guess sometimes you just need to pull permit so the guy from the city can tell you what you can or cannot do.

That would work if the AHJ would or could tell you. Our town has a regulation against. He cited (1) he is not a licensed electrician and (2) conflict of interest.

I light of this discussion I guess I will need to get a new dryer and oven. The current load in each hot is not the same (verified by measurement with a meter). Why? Oh, because one of the hots is also used to supply 120V for the control circuitry. So I am having difficulty understanding and believing that all of this discussion is in the proper context of the NEC. I will also concur that even attempting to draw 120V and 240V MUST be from a double pole breaker using 4 conductor wire of the proper gauge wire based on the size of the breaker and the breaker size to match the wire.

[Phil Thien]

So I am having difficulty understanding and believing that all of this discussion is in the proper context of the NEC.

Keep in mind that Julie works in a burb of Chicago. Most of IL does not even allow Romex-type cable, most everything has to be in conduit. It is a different world there, and much of what she is relating may be a result of a very different code environment.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I caught that she was form Chicago and based on previous conversations here, was aware of their peculiarities. I was referring to the conversation in general.

[Art Mann]

Wow! I have not seen house wiring run inside walls or in attics in conduit except in special situations. I didn't realize requirements are so different in different locations.

[Mike Nguyen]

Wow! I have not seen house wiring run inside walls or in attics in conduit except in special situations. I didn't realize requirements are so different in different locations.

Yep, this is why I am so confused right now that I am really thinking about hiring a licensed electrical to do the rest of the work and that is connecting the wires to the breaker because I have no idea what is the right way to get the wires from the conduit outside the wall into the sub panel that is flush with the wall. I know I have cut the wall but what is the right way to connect them.

[joe milana]

Julie's advising a novice wiring his home shop to put 110v circuits on individual single pole breakers and 220v circuits on individual two pole breakers is good advice & keeps things simple. What you guys are arguing about could be interpreted as "hmm, I can loosen one of the lugs on the 220v breaker servicing my air conditioner or range, and stick a #12 hot wire in there along side of the #8 wire, run a neutral & ground, and have me a new 110v circuit. Sweet!"

[Bruce Page]

Folks, please keep the discussion friendly.

[Julie Moriarty]

Rick, (deleted as per Bruce's request.)

Joe, that's exactly what I'm cautioning against. I've seen too many DIYers give advice based on what little they know because it worked and it makes me want to scream, "Why are you asking a woodworker, homeowner, or other non-professional about this!?!?! You need to be asking a professional!" Yeah, I go a little nuts when I see that kind of stuff because I've seen what happens when things go wrong.

For the record, any electrical advise I give will work. And it's going to continue to work for as long as the materials used in the installation hold up. Many times it may exceed code and that could mean it will cost a few bucks more but if you DIY, then you're saving on the labor. And if you DIY, it's always best to make sure things are built a little better than the minimums that codes require.