Belligerent sales people

[Val Kosmider]

Thankfully we have the internet.

It is a shame, but many sales people are just so ignorant they drive you out of the store and literally force you to buy anonymously over the net.

I usually do a lot of research, talk with others, and try to make up my mind as to what make/model/etc. so that by the time I hit the store it really comes down to price. I have found that within certain categories (for instance, the table saw you mentioned) that they are all of high quality and will provide years of service) you can't make a 'bad' decision. I often use the FWW product reviews to narrow the field, and I have personally found them to be quite compatible with my own personal proclivities. If the store can't/won't offer a compelling price, I move along. Even when their pricing is out of whack with the 'net', I will ask them to match it; if they won't come close, I move along. I have to say, and this is not a plug for them, but my local Woodcraft store is great to deal with, has quality suggestions, does not try to sell me crap I don't want/need, and makes the whole experience a positive event with good pricing. As a result, I go out of my way to patronize them.


Now...about the brakes, etc. on the table saw....I have an old Craftsman with the blade guard removed, no splitter, and no brake. I bought it used, and when the time comes, I expect to sell it used. Does the salesman out there pushing the 'you can't sell that saw because it has no brake' have any idea how many millions of saws which are out there, like mine, that have NO safety features whatsoever? I doubt it....but it is a good 'sales' pitch for some idjit who swallows it hook, line and sinker.

BTW, I still have all my fingers.....

[Alan Sweet]

I agree about walking out on such salespeople. I have done so and left carts of selected goods sitting in the middle of aisle. The primary purpose of a salesperson is to serve the customer, not serve some part of the salesperson's internal agenda.

[johnny means]

The price of a product is not directly related to the cost of producing it. The price is what the company can get for it.

Mike

That is simply not true. Of course production cost has a great deal to do with market price. As do supply and demand. Surely, Sawstop could raise their prices and still sell saws. I would have paid 6k four mine, but someone else wouldn't. The manufacturer has to control for cost in order to bring supply, demand, and ROI into equilibrium. I'm sure Steve Gass would have loved to corner the market by selling his product at the same prices as his competition, but production cost wouldn't allow for acceptable margins at that price point.

[Brian Peters]

Forget it, if they rub you the wrong way just walk. It's still a tough economy and I am never in a rush to buy a tool, especially a pricey one. The talks you got on not being able to sell it in the next few years is utter BS. Anyone who thinks that is true has no idea what they are talking about. Most legislation in that regard always have a clause for existing and antique equivalents. Don't worry about old iron just yet. I would like to see that guy convince anyone at the OWWM group that that philosophy is accurate.

Sawstop makes a great saw, I might actually buy one in the next couple years but the bottom like is that shop safety is not exclusive to a table saw. In my opinion, in a busy shop, its the most likely source for major injuries, but not the only one. Hell even a hammer can be dangerous. You have to take that sales talk with a grain of salt. Woodworking is inherently dangerous, but you can do a lot to prevent injuries and minimize risk with using things like push blocks, push sticks, machine guards and the like. The best safety device in a shop is safety glasses and or dust masks!

DOn't ever be afraid of old iron, it is usually a bit to tinker with from the start, but once you dial it in, it is far better than any of the new stuff out there. Forget the new yellow powermatic, it's overpriced for what it is!

[Bill Whig]

Dale,

I met some people just like you did at Woodcraft (that would only talk about Sawstop).

I picked up a 10 year old Unisaw at an auction last week and feel good for having made up my own mind. Going forward, it will be my responsibility to be attentive while I am using it--as I am with my other power tools.

Good luck with your decision!

Bill Whig

[Mike Henderson]

That is simply not true. Of course production cost has a great deal to do with market price. As do supply and demand. Surely, Sawstop could raise their prices and still sell saws. I would have paid 6k four mine, but someone else wouldn't. The manufacturer has to control for cost in order to bring supply, demand, and ROI into equilibrium. I'm sure Steve Gass would have loved to corner the market by selling his product at the same prices as his competition, but production cost wouldn't allow for acceptable margins at that price point.

Ah, but it is. And I was reminded of that when I was working as a marketing person in semiconductors. A customer asked us for a special package and I priced it at cost plus some percent. My boss informed me that we did not set prices that way, we set them based on what the market will bear.

That same thing is true in most industries. Look at pharmaceuticals. The price you pay for a pill has very little to do with the cost to produce it. The companies will tell you that they need to make a lot of money to cover the cost of research, testing, etc. but the truth is that they price it to maximize their profit.

There's some point between selling low and getting volume and selling high and selling a lot less that will maximize their profit. That's where they want to be. They don't always hit it the first time and that's why you see price changes.

On certain goods, the company will price high when they first release a product because there are people who will purchase at almost any price. Once they sell to most of those people, they'll drop the price to get the next tier of buyers.

Pricing is complex but has little to do with cost, except to set the lower limit. The goal of pricing is to maximize profit.

Mike

[Paul Wunder]

Unfortunately, I have learned that I cannot rely on a salesman for product advice based on my needs. Even if a salesman is knowledgeable, he is driven to sell a given product based upon how he is paid. He may be paid on $ dollar volume, he may get a bonus from his employer or manufacturer for selling a particular brand or the retailer may have an excess or insufficient inventory situation which will lead them to push you in one direction or another. Some manufacturers provide better sales material than others..and most salesman do NOT really know how to sell.

[Charles Coolidge]

So...your local high pressure used car dealership went bust and they starting selling woodworking machines?

[Jeff Duncan]

Don't ask salespeople advice….that was your first mistake

When they start offering advice contrary to what you know, and you keep listening, that's your second mistake

I used to sell tools and most guys in tool sales were there b/c it was a job, nothing to do with any knowledge of tools. At the time I was paid more than the assistant manager b/c I was the only one with actual hands on knowledge of how to use those tools. In short, sales people should not be your source of information regarding tool purchases, their job is to sell. You as a consumer should have all your information put together before ever talking to a sales person. At which point they are there to take your order and hopefully be competent enough to place it correctly….nothing more. That's not to say I'm defending the knuckle-heads you dealt with in any way! Just that a smart consumer can avoid that situation every time

good luck,
JeffD

[Harold Burrell]

Oh, man...cool stuff like that rarely happens to me.

I would have SO turned all of that around on those guys. First, I would have played dumb. You know, said things like, "Wow. Yeah. I care about my fingers! I had no idea!"

And then asked something like, "So tell me...if these other brands are so dangerous...why in the world would you sell them???"



Seriously...I would really be interested in knowing how much "commission" these stores make on SS compared to other brands.

[HANK METZ]

My standard reply to such is: are we gonna talk about what I want to buy or are we gonna talk about what you want to sell, in which case it’s gonna be a short discussion.

Sometimes you do have to get un- nice and be tough; some are idiots, some get the message.

[Erik Loza]

Don't ask salespeople advice….that was your first mistake

When they start offering advice contrary to what you know, and you keep listening, that's your second mistake

I used to sell tools and most guys in tool sales were there b/c it was a job, nothing to do with any knowledge of tools. At the time I was paid more than the assistant manager b/c I was the only one with actual hands on knowledge of how to use those tools. In short, sales people should not be your source of information regarding tool purchases, their job is to sell. You as a consumer should have all your information put together before ever talking to a sales person. At which point they are there to take your order and hopefully be competent enough to place it correctly….nothing more. That's not to say I'm defending the knuckle-heads you dealt with in any way! Just that a smart consumer can avoid that situation every time

good luck,
JeffD

Just my 2-cents, which anyone is free to accept or reject as they please: Sure, there are plenty of high-pressure, less-than-knowledegable sales people out there but there also many of us who are legitimate advisors, and fortunate enough to be able to make a living by getting folks into equipment which will improve their experience/safety/interface/etc. Sure, some folks like having "all the info available to them" without ever having to speak to a sales rep but I can tell you that in the ten years I have been doing this, I have been thanked many times for offering a solution which the customer never would have thought of on their own from just a bunch of literature or data sheets. There will always be high pressure tactics in any sales-driven industry but don't be afraid to talk to the rep. You can always walk away/hang up and who knows? You might be pleasantly surprised or get a deal you didn't expect. Again, just my experience.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[HANK METZ]

Ah, but it is. And I was reminded of that when I was working as a marketing person in semiconductors. A customer asked us for a special package and I priced it at cost plus some percent. My boss informed me that we did not set prices that way, we set them based on what the market will bear.

That same thing is true in most industries. Look at pharmaceuticals. The price you pay for a pill has very little to do with the cost to produce it. The companies will tell you that they need to make a lot of money to cover the cost of research, testing, etc. but the truth is that they price it to maximize their profit.

There's some point between selling low and getting volume and selling high and selling a lot less that will maximize their profit. That's where they want to be. They don't always hit it the first time and that's why you see price changes.

On certain goods, the company will price high when they first release a product because there are people who will purchase at almost any price. Once they sell to most of those people, they'll drop the price to get the next tier of buyers.

Pricing is complex but has little to do with cost, except to set the lower limit. The goal of pricing is to maximize profit.

Mike

Some years ago the company I worked for bought motors from Emerson’s specialty division. They knew to the penny what they could stick us for and not kill the goose laying the golden egg. That is the power of big companies that have budget analysts doing research and set pricing for their goods, not supply and demand; that aspect really does play a minor role.

[Stephen Cherry]

If you have a little time, why not buy used. For example, on the shicago criagslist there is a unisaw that looks like it has been used maybe twice. Plus, the sawstops come up used.

As for the safety aspects, I'm old enough that I'd rather just have the money, but for young people, the brake makes perfect sense.

[David Hawkins]

It sounds like a script a bean counter wrote to get big commissions.