Light bulb insanity

[Jim Koepke]

Mel,

I should restate my complaint. The CFL bulbs do come on immediately but don't achieve full brightness for several minutes. The problem I have is that the one at the bottom of the stairs is needed for safety and I can't turn it on and just trot down stairs with full light.

Point blank...none of the ones I have bought and installed has had a life that was longer than normal incandescent bulbs. Our local utility company sent every customer a box of CFLs to try to generate interest in their use. Those haven't lasted any longer. I would happily embrace CFLs if they provided both immediate full brightness and equal or better life span than normal incandescent bulbs.

Ken,

For this fixture it seems paying extra for an LED lamp might be a good investment.

Bright and instant on.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

Mel,

I should restate my complaint. The CFL bulbs do come on immediately but don't achieve full brightness for several minutes. The problem I have is that the one at the bottom of the stairs is needed for safety and I can't turn it on and just trot down stairs with full light.

You should try the GE CFLs. The "100 watt" ones I buy come on at nearly full brightness. I have a fixture at the entrance from my garage with two GE "100 watt" CFLs and those bulbs are at least five years old. They get turned on and off fairly frequently. I bought some Philips CFLs about a year ago and those take a good minute to come to full brightness. I plan to stick with GE CFLs for now.

I like CFLs, but I still have a lot of incandescent bulbs in my house too. I have a number of little used light bulbs that are original from when the house was built in 2001 and still haven't burned out.

[Mel Fulks]

The difference in results is interesting . I've noticed (and read) that the cfls must be screwed in by the BASE ,not the glass . That's a big change in our habit and is not possible with some fixtures . Even in tv commercials advocating cfl use ,they install them the wrong way! I think its possible that some that don't last might have sustained damage at instalation. The light I made several years ago is still on first cfl .

[Ken Fitzgerald]

For the record,

most of the bulbs in use in my house are CFLs but so far none of them have lived up to their proclaimed advantages except they use less power. I wish I had reason to totally embrace them!

[Brian Elfert]

My assumption is the reason they don't want people screwing them in by the glass is for liability reasons. They don't want cuts from broken glass. I have fixtures with CFLs where I have to twist the glass and the bulbs still lasted five years or more.

[Mike Cutler]

Ken
We have the same situation with the basement stairs it seems. I too have to descend the stairs, and don't really like doing it in the dark as I usually have an armload of firewood.
I put a standard 7 watt bulb, yep only 7 watts, and it is always on. It's just not worth the risk of doing a digger down the stairs too me, so I can justify the 7 continuous watts.
It's odd that the Cfl's you're getting aren't lasting. I've had the opposite experience. I had one infant mortality, and I think I've only replaced one in the past few years. I have them outside also exposed to all types of weather, though they are protected, but they see all of the the extremes here in Connecticut.

The thing I don't like about the whole issue is the loss of choice to the consumer. Nobody is really going to save any "real" money, but the excess capacity and generation, as a total, is fairly substantial on a national scale.

[Leo Graywacz]

I put a 100w equivalent bulb in my bathroom. When you flick it on it is more than bright enough for you to do your thing. In a few minutes it ramps up to full brightness and puts out more then enough light. 23w is what they draw.

[Brian Elfert]

Ken
We have the same situation with the basement stairs it seems. I too have to descend the stairs, and don't really like doing it in the dark as I usually have an armload of firewood.
I put a standard 7 watt bulb, yep only 7 watts, and it is always on. It's just not worth the risk of doing a digger down the stairs too me, so I can justify the 7 continuous watts.
It's odd that the Cfl's you're getting aren't lasting. I've had the opposite experience. I had one infant mortality, and I think I've only replaced one in the past few years. I have them outside also exposed to all types of weather, though they are protected, but they see all of the the extremes here in Connecticut.

The thing I don't like about the whole issue is the loss of choice to the consumer. Nobody is really going to save any "real" money, but the excess capacity and generation, as a total, is fairly substantial on a national scale.

I put motion sensing switches in places like the laundry room and walk-in closets where one might not have a hand free to work the light switch. You might consider a motion sensing switch for your stairway. None of my motion switched fixtures have CFLs because the bulbs haven't burned out yet.

I saw a measurable decrease in my electric bill the month after I converted several high use fixtures to CFL, but it could have been coincidence. I've spent between $20 and $30 on CFL bulbs in the past five years and I'm fairly certain I saved enough to pay for them. (I got the CFLs at subsidized prices.)

[Mike Cutler]

I put motion sensing switches in places like the laundry room and walk-in closets where one might not have a hand free to work the light switch. You might consider a motion sensing switch for your stairway. None of my motion switched fixtures have CFLs because the bulbs haven't burned out yet.

I saw a measurable decrease in my electric bill the month after I converted several high use fixtures to CFL, but it could have been coincidence. I've spent between $20 and $30 on CFL bulbs in the past five years and I'm fairly certain I saved enough to pay for them. (I got the CFLs at subsidized prices.)

Brian
I thought about that, but after awhile i just got either used to, or lazy, with the current setup. You'd actually be surprised at how much light a 7 watt bulb is in the dark.
If you have lights that, burn for many hours a day, you can't help but realize a savings, measurable, on your electric bill. In Connecticut a single 100 watt bulb burning 12 hours a day will cost 5+ dollars a month. Multiply this by each fixture, and it can add up to the point that you will see it reflected in your monthly bill.

I must be missing something, or just lucky, because I always find CFL's on sale at Lowes, Home Depot, or a Walmart. We bought them in six packs and the last time we bought them they were < 75 cents each. I have a Tote full of them downstairs, but haven't had to replace one in quite awhile.

[Mike Henderson]

I put motion sensing switches in places like the laundry room and walk-in closets where one might not have a hand free to work the light switch. You might consider a motion sensing switch for your stairway. None of my motion switched fixtures have CFLs because the bulbs haven't burned out yet.

I saw a measurable decrease in my electric bill the month after I converted several high use fixtures to CFL, but it could have been coincidence. I've spent between $20 and $30 on CFL bulbs in the past five years and I'm fairly certain I saved enough to pay for them. (I got the CFLs at subsidized prices.)

I put motion sensing switches in my garage. I like the fact that when I walk into the garage the light comes on, AND I like the fact that it turns off. I can't tell you how many times I went into the garage in the morning and found that I had left the light on all night (before I put the motion sensor in).

Mike

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I put motion sensing switches in my garage. I like the fact that when I walk into the garage the light comes on, AND I like the fact that it turns off. I can't tell you how many times I went into the garage in the morning and found that I had left the light on all night (before I put the motion sensor in).

Mike

I know a guy that has made a handsome living out of retrofitting factories and warehouses with motion sensor switches and upgrading sodium lights. There are some pretty good applications for that tech for sure.

[Ethan Melad]

Steve, where have you seen evince that producing CFLs or LEDs consumes more energy that the production on incandescents? i've not seen anything that indicates that. yes, CFLs use a low level of mercury, but as long as they are correctly disposed of there is not reason believe they are any more 'nasty' than than thousands of other products.

The discontinuation of incandescent bulbs has never been about economics; this type of bulb is being phased out due to the proportionately large amount of energy they consume. the more energy people use, the more energy needs to be created. the more energy being created, the more pollution, and the less resources available for the future. obviously renewable energy sources are the best solution, but at this point they're not going to supply the entirety of the country with electricity.

edit: i should also say that i completely agree that neither LED or CFL technology is particularly great yet. given a choice, i may still often prefer a halogen over CFL, but not for every light in the house. there are some fixtures that require certain bulbs, and some that are fine with others. in general, i choose the most efficient option that will best serve the fixture's purpose.

in all honesty, i think that to lament a (relatively) small price increase (or, as you've said, a net zero increase) and ignore the general benefit to the country at the present -and, in particular, the future - is a rather selfish way of thinking. Again, this isn't about money, its about preserving resources and environmental stability for the future.

[David C. Roseman]

Ive only posted pics once and had to get my son to my son to do the work. [snip].

Mel, please don't be deterred by that! The posting part is not so hard. The toughest is remembering how you did it a couple months later, when you next try.

David

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, where have you seen evince that producing CFLs or LEDs consumes more energy that the production on incandescents? i've not seen anything that indicates that. yes, CFLs use a low level of mercury, but as long as they are correctly disposed of there is not reason believe they are any more 'nasty' than than thousands of other products.

The discontinuation of incandescent bulbs has never been about economics; this type of bulb is being phased out due to the proportionately large amount of energy they consume. the more energy people use, the more energy needs to be created. the more energy being created, the more pollution, and the less resources available for the future. obviously renewable energy sources are the best solution, but at this point they're not going to supply the entirety of the country with electricity.

edit: i should also say that i completely agree that neither LED or CFL technology is particularly great yet. given a choice, i may still often prefer a halogen over CFL, but not for every light in the house. there are some fixtures that require certain bulbs, and some that are fine with others. in general, i choose the most efficient option that will best serve the fixture's purpose.

in all honesty, i think that to lament a (relatively) small price increase (or, as you've said, a net zero increase) and ignore the general benefit to the country at the present -and, in particular, the future - is a rather selfish way of thinking. Again, this isn't about money, its about preserving resources and environmental stability for the future.

Ethan, I've never seen it printed that the cfl or led bulbs use more power to produce, and I doubt we ever will. Such a story wouldn't be politically correct. Think about it though, a cfl has around 20 parts, most electronic, which use expensive and power hungry processes to produce. Mercury, which must be mined or at least refined, and several gasses that are not free to generate. It also uses petroleum to make the plastic. A led is a plastic jewel, filled with electrical components. There is no average bulb, but it could easily be in the hundreds of parts. All of it's parts are either petroleum based or require mining. A traditional light bulb takes two types of wire, an inert gas or vacuum, some glass and a little conductive metal.

More components=more energy to make. Shipping of the components to the manufacturer alone supports that, so do many other reasons. Price is also an indicator of the energy consumption of the manufacturing process, because the cost of energy is passed on to the consumer. This drives the question that I asked, do the more efficient bulbs actually offset their efficiency in use by the energy used in production?

I have no problem with cfl or led bulbs. I'm glad the technology is being developed, the consumer craves choices. My problem is with the process that they are being forced on us. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to keep incandescents, and some legitimate reasons for the others as well. Why are we being forced one way in a "free" country?

I'll tell you the same thing I told Mike H about the environmental questions. I'd like to keep this friendly, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

One quick thought, the environmentalists tend to refer to the non believers in disparaging ways, ie ludites, flat earth, etc. Keep in mind that we can learn a lot from history. Our earth and sun is temporary at best, and far more powerful than anything humans can even fathom. History is full of ancient civilizations that thought they could control the seasons/weather/sun through many crazy ways. The Mayans for example. We know they were misguided now, how will history view today's environmentalism?

When the gigantic caldera under Yellowstone releases it's energy, it will likely do more to effect the climate, in minutes, then the sum product of all the combined product of humans existence. Is it really humans that control the climate?

[Pat Barry]

In todays market, CFL bulbs look to be the best value to the consumer when comparing the price of the bulb, the life expectancy, and the electrical energy cost to operate. CFL's have come down in price considerably over the past two years because of the volume manufacturing benefits and the competition. We should all expect this to happen for LED bulbs over the next couple years and that will make LED bulbs a more acceptable short term payback choice.

I calculated that for a 60W equivalent LED bulb, CFL bulb, and incandescent that for a typical application in my home (4 hours use per day) for a short term (2 year scenario) that the CFL bulb is the best value decision, followed by the LED, and the Incandescent is trailing. Here were the results I obtained for total cost to operate for 2 years -- CFL = $5.66, LED = $16.01, Incandescent = $21.02. The high cost of the LED bulb is quickly offset by the operating cost of the incandescent ($1.52 per year for LED, $2.08 per year for CFL, $9.61 per year for Incandescent).

The LED bulb used for this calculation is the CREE - probably the most expensive choice for out of pocket cost to purchase. Alll prices for bulbs are from current Home Depot website.

What does this mean to me? I need to get a couple LED bulbs and try them out. I am totally unhappy with the CFL bulbs for a variety of reasons (poor cold weather performance - important in my shop and garage and outdoor fixtures here in MN; the CFL aren't compatible with the dimmers we have installed in the house; the CFL bulbs don't last as expected / advertised; the CFL bulbs are all over the map with regard to light color and uniformity especially after a few hundred hours of use).

How do the LEDs do in cold weather?