This is a Pretty Serious Saw

[David Weaver]

Some of you guys might remember about a year ago when I mentioned that I thought the orientation of pulling a saw made for a handicap on japanese rip saws.

And at the time, I also said that I'd welcome any recommendation for an inexpensive disposable rip saw that could hang with a thumbhole rip or any other relatively common western rip saw.

Well, I never did find a disposable rip saw that could, and I have several of the disposable types (gyochuko and Z), but out of that discussion did come the opportunity to try a "real" japanese rip saw that is intended to be used on hardwoods. It came in the mail this morning.

Wish I was in sawing shape right now! (I'm sure i'll still be able to get a good feel for it - it is not the normal flimsy kind of saw that you think of when you get a kataba or something like that from gyochuko - it's much bigger, much more rigid and much thicker).

More to come as I get to try it out.

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[Roy Lindberry]

Looks like it has a progressive pitch, am I right?

[Chris Griggs]

Friggin' sweet!

[David Weaver]

Looks like it has a progressive pitch, am I right?

Yeah, progressive pitch, heavy plate, less hook than the disposable saws intended for softwood and a proper handle so as to generate some power without inducing arthritis.

[george wilson]

I didn't think you wanted one of those type saws. Or,is this a different type saw from the ones I have alerted you to on Ebay?

[Sean Hughto]

Now your saw is super beautiful and seriously specialized, but I have this Ryoba:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/s...em/MS-JS310.XX
and always thought it was a great ripper. For what it's worth.

[David Weaver]

This is definitely a "try" situation and not a buy, it's a custom saw that belongs to the sender. If I had unlimited money, I'd inquire about finding if the sawmaker would be willing to custom make something similar, but unfortunately, I don't have unlimited money.

I do have a big ryoba and a long kataba, they both fare pretty weak ripping long boards, but they're nice for ripping short pieces that are set up in a vise. this thing is several orders of magnitude bigger and has teeth similar in size to a western rip saw and a plate about as thick.

[Alan Caro]

David Weaver,

Your new saws are indeed beautiful objects. What I would like to understand is the rationale for draw-cut saws. I would think that pushing is a more efficient application of force and when force is more easily applied, so it is to the same degree easier to control. As the front portion is not toothed, it appears it acts as a follow guide to keep the path straight, but that and the angle of the handle also shows that cuts are made with the relative angle similar to a push-cut saw.

I can understand draw-cut saws as small back saws for very accurate straight, thin cuts, but seems somewhat counter-intuitive for ripping. Since Japanese wood-working tools and blades - swords and knives- are highly refined over centuries and of wonderful design, I must be missing something. The only rationale I can think of is that the blades could be thinner as drawing will not have as much potential to force the blade into a curve as pushing. What is very sensible is the progressive pitch.

Alan Caro

[Sean Hughto]

I'm no expert in Japanese techniques, but I am generally aware that they use very different postures, benches and setups in their sawing and planning. Was your frustration ripping when you were doing it the Japanese way, or when trying to use the saw in a Western sort of context - sawbench etc.?

[David Weaver]

There were a couple of things that bothered me, and I was using the saws standing on the boards as most serious ripping is done on longer boards (with japanese saws):
1) the saws that I have have way too much hook for hardwoods when you have the orientation of ripping "back into the straws"
2) the handles are the straight handles like the ryoba, i might have mild arthritis, but even if i didn't, the grip required on a saw like that leaves sore hands
3) the saws just don't have the heft to work properly in that fairly violent orientation where you're standing over the cut, pulling back into the straws with force, etc

And most importantly, on a long rip, a western rip saw is a very usable saw if you get used to ripping. you can rip for 10 minutes, and take a break, and do it more if you're willing to pace yourself with a rhythm you can tolerate.

With the western saw, you're clipping the straws off and pushing them out. Your bodyweight is naturally working in the direction of the saws, and if you get tired, you can sit on a board with the saw line going right down your crotch and saw with both hands in a sitting position (cutting towards you) very easily.

But that experience was not with this saw. The fact that immediately, it feels like it was intended for heavier work and it feels like it will pretty much be able to take anything you can physically put into it should make a big difference. I can't remember what a typical time is for me with 8/4 cherry and a western saw, but it's something like a foot a minute, and much faster with 4/4 or 5/4.

This is all pretty esoteric, I know most people don't like to rip by hand, but I think it's fantastic.

[Jonathan McCullough]

I'm curious to see what you think of it, especially what handle angle seems to work out best; it would appear that you could vary it with that saw. Does seem like you could get more work done with 28 inches though. Who or what is SRC?

[David Weaver]

David Weaver,

Your new saws are indeed beautiful objects. What I would like to understand is the rationale for draw-cut saws. I would think that pushing is a more efficient application of force and when force is more easily applied, so it is to the same degree easier to control. As the front portion is not toothed, it appears it acts as a follow guide to keep the path straight, but that and the angle of the handle also shows that cuts are made with the relative angle similar to a push-cut saw.

I can understand draw-cut saws as small back saws for very accurate straight, thin cuts, but seems somewhat counter-intuitive for ripping. Since Japanese wood-working tools and blades - swords and knives- are highly refined over centuries and of wonderful design, I must be missing something. The only rationale I can think of is that the blades could be thinner as drawing will not have as much potential to force the blade into a curve as pushing. What is very sensible is the progressive pitch.

Alan Caro

Every old US-made saw I've used is progressive pitch if the teeth are of any substantial size (speaking of rip saws, I suppose). I probably answered most of the rest to Sean, about the orientation and use of body weight. But also for practical purposes, price. I have no clue how much this saw costs, but I'm sure it was a lot. My average cost for a thumbhole rip out of 10 of them has probably been about $35. I can find a lot of japanese saws that are disposable that cost more than that and don't rip much of anything well.

I think the thoughts about thin saws, etc, are because all that's been made available to us over here are fairly thin saws of light weight. Joinery saws, etc, but there are no common low priced machine made heavy rip saws like this. Since this is a custom saw that belongs to someone else (and not mine), it's certainly not an indication that saws like this will be available, either. I have no clue how you'd go about getting a saw like this made (and to me, going through a dealer for a saw that is probably already close to four figures - maybe it is four figures, I don't know - but it isn't something I have any interest in doing through a dealer).

This is not like any of the delicate thin saws, though, it's intended for power. I understand japanese skilled sawyers can use these pretty swiftly through hardwoods.

[David Weaver]

I'm curious to see what you think of it, especially what handle angle seems to work out best; it would appear that you could vary it with that saw. Does seem like you could get more work done with 28 inches though. Who or what is SRC?

Not sure (about the speed), nor the hardness. I'm not going to file it. If it was my saw, I'd have no reservations of filing it, because it's rip, but I won't use it enough to find out. I do think it's a shame saws like this aren't made in any quantity.

If I was betting at lloyds without knowing anything, just from having picked it up and noting its rigidity, I'd put the over under at 52-55 hardness. Just taking it out of the case makes it sing.

The tooth line of this saw is around 15 inches long, which is probably as long as the significant power part of a stroke with a western rip saw.

[Pat Barry]

Hi David, what actually holds the handle on there. I don't see any mechanical fasteners in the pictures. Is it just friction?

[Brian Holcombe]

I recently bought a mitsukawa ryoba in white steel, I find it very intuitive to rip with. I set them upright in the tail vise and pull toward myself and down.

awesome saw, I'm interested in knowing more details.