This is a Pretty Serious Saw

[Winton Applegate]

pull the fleeing spirit into the worker.
Nice one Jim !
A breath of fresh air.

[Roderick Gentry]

The bio mechanical analysis is interesting, but has it's limitations. We know the fastest and most efficient ambulators are four legs on the floor, yet we walk on two. Muscle size will be what it needs to be to get the job done, analysis based on physical or technical difficulty often miss some point. They were tough, they were skilled, that may have been the case before they even started an apprenticeship. A crazy example I came across while building a spinning wheel was:

I always assumed that the standard seated/treadle wheel was the one wool was spun on, because most of the spinning we see today is wool, and most of the old wheels one sees were the low treadle type. But no, that was for spinning cotton, and other similar fiber. The great wheel was the one for spinning wool. The great wheel is used from a standing position, you give it a spin, walk away as the material pulls out then twists up, then walk back to the wheel as the fibers wind onto the bobbin. All this done while under your full body weight. A spinner could walk 20 miles in a day. Did they do it this way because it allowed them to use the large muscles of the legs rather than solely those of the ankle and the fingers, because wool is a heavier fiber?

I think it is getting even more difficult to tease out reasons for things, with all the cross-pollination in tools we have today, and the generally different environment of use. My first western dovetail saw had a plate of 30 thou; my first Jap. one had a plate of 14 thou; recently LV brought out some large backsaw that have plates of 20 thou. There are Japanese DT saws with plates of 9 thou, but I have never used one. It gets hard to keep all this stuff apart.

That said... One advantage of the Japanese saw is that both arms are used together in stand over ripping. The older W. rip saws had handles you could grasp in two hands. My dad was born in 1925, and the men in my Grand Dad's shop started each day ripping out stock by hand. They did it one handed on horses with a knee as holddown, he never saw them rip two handed. These guys built windows, houses, and sometimes the Titanic, so they were not strangers to scale.

I'd like to see some video of Japanese carpenters ripping. I have one from TV, and he is bent over with the arms kept mostly straight, articulating from the shoulders. It is a gentle swinging motion, and he is not white knuckled on the grip.

[Jim Koepke]

It is a gentle swinging motion, and he is not white knuckled on the grip.

As with a properly sharpened western saw, a straight path is chosen by the saw of the sawyer who tries not to direct it.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

Hey David,
Could you please put some kind of ruler etc. with the photo so we can see the size of this monster.
Thanks

[David Weaver]

The plate is about 380mm long (or 15 inches) and about 14 of that's teeth.

[David Weaver]

Well, I had delusions about making videos of using this saw on 8/4 cherry and timing one or the other, but circumstances have made it so that I don't really have the time to set all of that up and create and upload it.

I have, however, used the saw on some 8/4 cherry in the last couple of days while I'm slowly processing over-thick wood to make kitchen cabinets, and I've been able to compare to two saws:

The first being this "tip top" etched saw that I got off of ebay. This saw's prepared with a little bit of rake, and that combined with the orientation of the handle makes it extremely easy to use. In ripping with these two, I am able to use the western saw faster, but I get tired with it more quickly, too. What was unexpected was what part of my body got tired with the japanese saw - my hamstrings. My arms and hands do not get tired with the japanese saw, but my legs do.

Orientation with the japanese saw is critical. If you try to cut a board flat standing on the board, it's too aggressive. If you step on the board on something about 15 inches tall, then the saw rips very well, quickly and easily (with that strong filing feeling, it leaves you wanting nothing in terms of bite, but at the same time stays smooth). That means this saw is not appropriate for me on pieces shorter than about 2 1/2 feet, because I can't get a good effective angle with whatever I'm ripping. I doubt it's intended to be for those short pieces.

The japanese saw is also a bit pickier about woods. I ripped some 5/4 beech to make hand planes, and while it worked for that, it was a bit grabby. What I had just wasn't long enough (a little over 2 feet long) or thick enough to take advantage of the way this saw is set up, and the tip top ripped a foot and a half about as fast as it took me to rip 6 -8 inches with the japanese saw. The surprising thing is that both saws have a kerf about the same, so I was able to right down the japanese saw's kerf and finish the beech blank.

However, on 8/4 cherry, the tip top is not optimal because it has comfortable rake and teeth for 4/4 or 5/4 stuff from cherry to beech/maple hardness. It's easy to use, but it doesn't have quite the bite you're looking for if you want to saw fast. I just finished filing another disston d8 5 point saw (that I got in a lot from an mjd auction) and made sure to file it close to zero rake. The conclusion with the two saws in an 8/4 board that I have is that I can rip faster with the D8 with zero rake, but that same d8 is unpleasant to use in 4/4 cherry sitting (which is my preferred method for long rips).

Everything is a tradeoff. With some practice, I would probably be able to rip faster with the japanese saw in stuff like 8/4 cherry, than I would with a saw set up like the tip top. If the western saw is set up like the D8 with almost no rake and it's fresh, I likely will never get this saw to rip as quickly as I can with it. What rips 4/4 and 8/4 well isn't just determined by tooth count, but can be determined by rake instead.

This japanese saw is, however, a very seriously capable saw of ripping wood if you like to forego power tools, and it will do it fast enough that you won't feel dissatisfied. Overall, with more practice in orienting the work with the saw, it probably would for practical purposes not add much or any time to a project over the western saws I have, and I'm sure there is a case or two where it would be faster.

That leaves another question - what's out there in the non-custom saw market that is like this japanese saw? Nothing that I'm aware of. If I would have used a gyochuko 300mm ryoba or a 330 mm rip kataba of the disposable flavor, this contest would've been a joke. If I were going to be in the shop for a couple of hours and mix in 20-40 feet of rips with either a well filed western saw or the custom saw in this thread (between planing, etc), I'd be no worse for wear - just exercised a little. If I were to try to do the same thing with any of the disposable saws I have, even the big ones, I would fight those tools the entire time.

I'd score the overall experience as follows:
* Which saw is cheaper? western saws, obviously. There's no disposable machine made alternative to this japanese saw

* Which is more forgiving to various work holding? Western saws, though I could learn to use this saw better than I do now, I think ripping foot and a half pieces with a western saw isn't a problem - it might be difficult with this one. A disposable saw can do that kind of thing, though, where you put the work in the bench vise.

* which saw is more forgiving to abuse and heavy use? Probably even up - the japanese saw shown is surprisingly tough, i mean really tough. You have no chance of pinging teeth of off it or cracking chunks off of it. It's tempered for its job. A habitual saw jammer may even get better longevity out of this saw

* maintenance? even for both. There's nothing about either saw that suggests they couldn't be filed by the user. I have never sent a saw out for sharpening, and have no interest in that kind of thing, but if I had a custom crosscut saw from japan, i'd maybe consider it. I just have no tolerance for tools that the user cannot keep very sharp.

* which saw is faster overall? I'd guess an experienced japanese user would find the japanese saw faster if the work fits (i've heard already that it's the case with this saw). An experienced western sawyer would use a western saw faster.

* would I own just this saw to rip? No, I'd probably commission the saw maker to make two saws like this one - one exactly the same as this one, and one with just a bit less aggressive rake and maybe another tooth per inch. That would just about cover everything except thin softwoods. I have no idea how much that would cost. $2000? I don't know what chance there is of the machine makers making this kind of saw at a slightly lower quality level, but in high volumes. I haven't seen any thick plated machine made rip saws, and I'm sure even the piece of spring steel isn't cheap because it's thick at the tang and this saw has a lot of variance between the tang thickness and the thinnest part of the plate.

Accuracy? - even - it's easy to stay right on the line with both saws, and they can both correct during the cut to stay there. Once you've ripped about 20 feet of wood, staying on a line isn't hard. Squareness follows shortly after that. It took me a lot less than 20 feet to get this saw to follow a line - maybe 5.

I do have a bit of an attitude adjustment over the capability of japanese saws. This saw when worked properly doesn't cut back into the straws, it actually cuts straight across them or slightly uphill. It really is a pleasant surprise and it's a joy to use.

[David Weaver]

Couple of pictures:

This is my second cut, after only about 6 inches of other cuts. Just an idea of the only good way I've found to use the saw - stand on the board. I got a little fat of the line on this cut (intending to just stay on the right side of the line), but well, it's with about a foot of cutting experience with the saw. This board is too short to comfortably saw, but the same idea works on a longer board. On a longer one, I'd have both feet on the board, it's intuitive and works well.

All I had to do is just lay my saw bench over. Same bench for both activities is nice, no need to make anything else. This bench is 12 inches wide. With the board propped, the saw doesn't contact the concrete.

The second picture is just the two saws in question. It gives a good perspective on the size of the japanese saw.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Thanks for the info.

It's intriguing, but not something I'm able to drop the cash on. Too bad a lesser, mass manufactured version isn't available. But then again, a cheap, mass manufactured western rip saw isn't really available new, either, I suppose. (Or maybe they are, I haven't looked) As long as I can pick up old Disstons for cheap when I find 'em, that's the route.

Are you testing a neander "Saw Stop" feature on that western rip, or is that just spill over from the great Dykem disaster?

[David Weaver]

Hah...that's just plain old red dykem. The dykem disaster was a bursting blue container, so the red on those teeth is just laziness after marking teeth. I don't always mark them on a rip saw since I have good raking light (and can easily see flats), but I did on that saw for some reason.

[Tony Wilkins]

Very interested reading your experience David. When I started my painfully slow journey into woodworking, I was convinced that Japanese saws would be the answer to my physical limitations. They do in fact work well but the Western saws I got subsequently have just been so much more forgiving to my ineptitude.

I've always thought that Japanese saws are 'precise' tools set to a particular (and somewhat narrow) job - wood type etc. Your write up seems to support that. Kind of explains why whenever you see a traditional Japanese craftsmen they have a whole wall of different saws.

[David Weaver]

I don't know too much about japanese tools, I have a bunch and use some of them regularly, but I think there is a disconnect in a lot of the traditional tools because some of their fascination is working extremely soft woods and trying to do it with what look like near perfect machine edges everywhere.

When you take a tool that's set up to do that, and then put it right in the end of a beech board, it doesn't work that well - too much hook, and it just skips everywhere.

That might have something to do with why they have all of the saws that they have vs. the 4 or so you might find in a vintage tool box (if it's left unfettered).

I think I still do like western rip saws better, that can probably be gathered from above, they're accurate once you have experience. Accurate enough that you can clean up any edge they've left very quickly without overshooting a mark. plus, you can use a western rip saw sitting down so that you don't have to do anything to hold your work other than sit on it. I can't think of anything lazier with hand tools than sitting on your work and using two hands with the saw.

[Chris Vandiver]

Very interested reading your experience David. When I started my painfully slow journey into woodworking, I was convinced that Japanese saws would be the answer to my physical limitations. They do in fact work well but the Western saws I got subsequently have just been so much more forgiving to my ineptitude.

I've always thought that Japanese saws are 'precise' tools set to a particular (and somewhat narrow) job - wood type etc. Your write up seems to support that. Kind of explains why whenever you see a traditional Japanese craftsmen they have a whole wall of different saws.

Another wall of saws(from Daryl Weir).

[Tony Wilkins]

After watching his video on hand saws, Ron Herman has a huge amount of handsaws tuned to different jobs. I think western handsaws don't need to be so precisely tuned to each job as Japanese saws do in general.

[David Weaver]

Probably three saws would allow a woodworker to do most of their work. I can't talk, though, I have more than are in that till, and I consider myself as someone who doesn't really have a problem compared to some other people.

[David Weaver]

You can believe whatever you'd like. I timed a few cuts last night. In 7/4 cherry last night, I cut with a western saw at a rate of about 1 1/2 feet per minute. That would be a typical rip pace - possibly twice as fast in 4/4 if it's a typical rip. most of the stuff that I rip is between 2 and 6 feet long. The cuts that I timed last night were on a three and four foot stick. I've never actually timed in minutes and seconds before, and am somewhat surprised that the cut in 7/4 is that fast (maybe because I'm lazy and it feels like work while you're doing it, who knows?)

I might be able to get to the point that I could do the same pace with this saw, there were certainly parts of the cut that were as fast, but it will be mailed to the next person on the (closed) list before I get the chance to get all of the work handling down. It's already packed.

I appreciate that the owner of this saw is pragmatic, confident in its toughness due to its development and willing to mail it out. It was a real once in a lifetime treat to use a japanese saw that was designed for the woods that I ripped with it. At any rate, the owner knows the maker, he could get another one if he wanted to, I guess that's why he's willing to share the saw around. I would hope it never comes to that, but it beats sitting on it and talking about how great it is without letting anyone else experience it.

But, really, the original point of all of this was whether the average amateur could just go out and find a good japanese rip saw at a reasonable price and rip at a respectable pace so that they didn't just walk around saying "I know how to rip, but I use a table saw if it's more than a foot". And the answer is still no. I'm overrun with western saws that fit in that category, though. What this experiment did prove to me is that the (japanese) saws can be designed to rip hardwood capably and fast, and not surprisingly, the orientation of the saw in use is across the straws and not back into it.

Price aside, I think those with the means and the contacts could come up with durable, tough, fast saws like this one and work fine without power tools, and work with a good pace and not have concern about whether they might ping the end off of a tooth in harder woods.

Otherwise, I have represented this whole scenario as accurately as it could possibly be represented, with an objective view of the saws in question and with the disclosure that the western saws are mine and I know what to do with them (thus some bias), despite being an out of shape average person. My only real regret of all of this is that after finding a saw that can hang with the western saws, I can't just provide an email address where anyone with a genuine interest can contact the maker to get their own.