geothermal for new house??

[eugene thomas]

I am going tohave house built this year and one of the many things throwing around is goingwith geothermal. Seems that everyone talk to has their opinion. theheating companies are all for it. But seems that friends and other tradespeople that talk to about it are down on the long term payback. I knowabout the tax credits, can’t help but know way the heating companies keepreminding me of it. just wondering if anyone converted existing houseover to geothermal and has some savings numbers. House will have full basement with about 1600square feet min floor. From Wisconsin so do get some colddays..

[David Weaver]

BIL has, I haven't. I have natural gas, he doesn't. He has propane. His system cost before credits was about $20K for a three well system with vertical wells, and I believe his heat bill is about a third of what it was with propane, figure $2k a year of savings (he's heating double the SF, though).

I'd imagine his A/C in the summer costs less, too, but I didn't ask him about that as I only had a passing curiosity.

Is natural gas one of your heating options?

[David Masters]

Electric service is the only option for me. When I purchased the house, it had an air sourced heat pump that we continued to use for the next 15 years. When the heat pump was due to be replaced, I looked at geothermal. I found several payback calculators on the Internet which showed my payback to be around 8 years. Then came the tax credits and a $1200 rebate from the power company. With these taken into account, the geothermal system came in about the same price as putting in an energy efficient air source heat pump. I priced four systems and prices in some cases were several thousand dollars different. The difference in prices were largely attributed to the cost of digging and installing the loops in the yard. I ended up going with two Water Furnace systems since my home was already multi-zoned heating. After all costs, credits, and rebates were taken into account, I remember the entire project cost me $14k.

I've been extremely happy with its performance. The electricity bills have dropped between 1/4 to 1/3. When I talk to my neighbors still using an air source heat pump, I find I'm paying significantly less for my winter bills. One advantage that I wasn't expecting is how quiet the system runs. You hardly know that the system is operating.

With a new house you won't have to worry about this, but it took about two years to get the soil over the trenches dug for the loops to settle. I have six loops running through the front yard and it looked pretty awful for a while.

[eugene thomas]

I live in country so will do loops if go geo. the natural gas main stops about 3/4 of mile from my house. propane will be the fuel use just have to wait to get numbers back from contractor and heating company's talking to One heating company told me that some of the tax credits changed as of January 1 so will see what happens..

[phil harold]

If was to build a new house my priorities in order

1. foam insulation
2. passive solar
3. in-floor radiant heating
4. geothermal

heating mass over trying to heat air will save you in the long run
now if you could cool with a radiant system, that would be awesome

[eugene thomas]

well, I might have three of the four on your list Phil. not really looked into the passive solar.

[phil harold]

well, I might have three of the four on your list Phil. not really looked into the passive solar.

passive solar is relativity easy basics here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive...uilding_design

just position your house to get the max sun during the winter and least during the summer
large windows with properly designed overhangs http://www.susdesign.com/overhang/

have a heat mass
the house does not have to look modern just incorporate the ideas into it,
add solar hot water heating and solar electric on the roofs cant hurt, but then it is not so passive yet still efficient

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have a ground source heat pump system, actually on my second system. It works well enough, except we get some wacky cold snaps that push it into backup heat mode, then the electrical meter really spins. More to it than that though.

The initial system lasted around 15 years. Towards the end of it's life, it got less efficient, and the bill climbed. I replaced it because the cost of fixing it was ridiculous. The new system, was stupidly expensive. I could have installed 3 or maybe even 4 conventional systems for its cost. The duct was all in place, and the loops were fine, we're just talking the handler and exchanger assembly. Maybe the price followed the housing market down, I bought in early 2008, I haven't looked. With the prices here though, i think payback probably happens a year after you have to buy a new system. It has certainly not saved me any money in the 7 years I've lived here.

It is very quiet, works as it's supposed to, and has been relatively trouble free though I guess.

One other thing I don't like, the heat coming out of the vents are only a few degrees warmer than the room air usually. If you come in from the cold and want to warm up, there are no warm spots in the house. No cold ones either, but I'm old fashioned I guess. It does work extremely well in ac mode. I think I could make the whole house a walk in cooler if I wanted.

[Larry Browning]

I am not sure what the common name for this is, but have you looked into the styrofoam blocks filled with concrete for you exterior walls? We have those installed and really like them. Very high insulation and saves a lot on energy bills. Plus, sort of turns your whole house into a tornado shelter. At the time we did it 16 years ago, it only added about 5% to the cost of the home. Don't know what it would add today though.

[Brian Elfert]

I got quotes for geothermal in 2008 for a new house that is 1,200 sq ft on one level with a basement. About $26,000 before credits, but that included all duct work for house and buried loops, not well loops. Remember that HVAC contractors tend to inflate their prices when tax credits are available. They don't inflate prices by 30%, but they put some of that tax credit money in their pocket.

I was planning to use SIPs for the house I wanted to build. In theory they are pretty air tight and well insulated. I didn't compare pricing against ICFs.

[phil harold]

If you come in from the cold and want to warm up, there are no warm spots in the house. .

That why I love radiant heat the floor is warm

[Brad Adams]

I've been extremely happy with its performance. The electricity bills have dropped between 1/4 to 1/3.[/QUOTE]

I am an hvac contractor and install geo thermal. Say you have a $200 electric bill. If you save a quarter of that amount you are looking at a 23 year payback, in my area. Most installs around here for geo are about $22,000. A really efficient gas furnace and 18 seer a/c would be around $8500. I like geo but some places just don't warrant installing one. In a small residence money would be better spent on foam insulation. When the unit goes breaks down in 15 years, and all mechanical equipment does, your savings go out the door. Parts and labor are not cheap.

[Lee Schierer]

I converted my house over 30 years ago. We added 1/3 more heated space at the same time we installed the geothermal unit. Our electric bill stayed exactly the same even though we were heating more house and the temp stayed the same 24/7 instead of setting back the individual room thermostats each night for the electric base boards.

Four years ago we decided we wanted A/C for the summer ( our original unit was heat only). We upgraded to a new Bryant (Carrier) geothermal unit. We turned on the A/C on July 5 and ran the A/C July, August and September. In that 3 month period we used exactly the same kilowatts that we had used the previous summer running fans and a dehumidifier.

We live in NW PA and typically our unit runs from Mid October until April. We do see days below zero as well. It is a Carrier 50YDV 4 ton cooling 50,000 BTU unit. We heat approximately 2200 square feet at a constant 69-70 degrees in the winter. Our electric bill is about $150 per month on balanced billing. Our meter is an off peak meter and our electric provider gives us a discounted rate for off peak power use which amount to 60% of the time. We are a total electric home. My unit is an open loop system using two wells that are about 100 feet apart drawing water out of one and returning the water to the other. We do see some water temperature drop when it is really cold and it would be better it our wells were further apart to allow more warming, but when the wells were drilled we didn't have more property to spread them out.

Most systems now are installed using closed loops in either deep drilled wells or a spaghetti coil buried in a deep pit in the yard. These options add significantly to the set up costs. We did not get any tax credits for either system, but they would certainly help reduce the payback period. My first unit ran trouble free for over 23 years before we replaced it with the new one. Our new one has had no problems since it was installed. We run the variable speed fan 24/7 to keep the house uniformly heated or cooled and to transport sun load heat to other areas of the house. It is extremely quiet, making about as much noise as a refrigerator running.

[Ed Aumiller]

Installed Geothermal in out house in 1994, put in 2800' of pipe in ground about 5' down... works great... we have 1800 sq ft of heating..

Had one problem in 20 years, a line in the unit rubbed against metal and finally leaked... this just happened and I went to eBay and bought a new
3 1/2 ton unit for $2200 and will get a $660 rebate on taxes in 2014 for replacement cost of $1540 (I swapped it out myself)

Also put one in my sons home which we built 6 years ago...

Both units work great....

One thing to note... Neither my sons house nor my house has the Auxiliary resistance heaters... have never needed them... so it is not necessary in our opinion..

If you get someone with a backhoe to put the pipes in the ground it is much cheaper...

INFO... when had tech verify the leak in our unit, had him get a price for a replacement from his company.... it was $7900... yep, $7900... I bought a new unit on eBay for $2200, delivered ($1540 after 30% tax rebate)

The installed prices are absurd to say the least... you do NOT need any special license to install them... they are treated the same as window A/C units since all refrigerant is sealed, etc..

Only recommendation I have is to special order ALL ground loops to be one continous loop to eliminate any outside joints... my system is 4 700' loops all connected in the basement, my sons are 6 700' loops, also connected in the basement.... that way there is nothing outside to leak...

DO IT....

Call me if any questions...

[Brad Adams]

One thing to note on homeowner installed systems is most manufacturers won't honor the warranty. Doesn't matter if it is geo, mini split, furnace etc.