The One Stone Challenge

[Noah Wagener]

If Crystolon stones look like those ubiquitous hardware store grey stones, i would be afraid to use one.They look nasty. Anyways, I have kind of got the natural stone bug and would like to do everything with one. George mentioned flattening a black Arkansas with sandstone and Warren said it was used as a bench stone at one time. Lee said it could not keep up with advances in steel in the nineteenth century but if it can flatten a hard Arkansas, it must be able to handle steel. I just killed a diamond hone trying to flatten a tiny little flower bed ground cover rock. Does this look like novaculite?:

sawmillcreek 046.jpgsawmillcreek 047.jpgsawmillcreek 053.jpg

Do black Arks make a red slurry like that?

I shaved my dry face with a 32 degree chisel from the Klingons off that pebble. Best edge I have ever gotten though that isn't saying much. I wish they would not dismiss Arkansas stones in the woodworking books i read as coarse and slow.

I can not imagine that rock came from Arkansas. I am starting to think that this idea that sharpening stones only come from Ouchita and Kyoto is a persistent legend. I guess I'll still pay 60 for an Arkansas to not have to hunt a bigger one down and flatten it but it is fun to find something useable in the wild.

[David Weaver]

Looks like something sedimentary, like some kind of slate. Everything on arks matches pretty much what the stone is when you abrade them. Slates can present a lot of different colors, and japanese stones do some odd things sometimes (japense stones are sedimentary, and I guess slates probably are, too).

Novaculite has a different look. Slurry comes off a little too slowly to build up like that, and it's black, anyway.

Most of the woodworking books that you're looking at were probably written about the time that king stones got popular. It was the middle of chrome vanadium steel era, too, and CV does OK on oilstones, but it doesn't sharpen to the biting edge that vintage carbon steel does.

There's probably another aspect now that didn't exist at least in spades several years ago, and that's cheap flat diamond hones. I don't know who 30 or 40 years ago was mining good quality new arkansas stones - they still present a host of problems for a beginner who really just wants to put a tool in a guide and pull it some number of strokes on a surface. But for a person willing to use steel that is intended to be sharpened on the stones and to learn the stones, slow and coarse are not two things that come to mind.

[David Weaver]

By the way, the new norton crystolons are not like the chipped up gray aluminum oxide stones you see at a hardware store for $6. They are nicely made and they work very very well for bevel work, or pretty much any edge where you need to take a good bit off fast.

I wouldn't buy a combination stone, the fine crystolon doesn't make a lot of sense to me, just one that's medium crystolon all the way through (which I can't seem to find in 8x2).

[Chris Griggs]

I wouldn't buy a combination stone, the fine crystolon doesn't make a lot of sense to me, just one that's medium crystolon all the way through (which I can't seem to find in 8x2).

Here: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/No...-2-P176C5.aspx

[David Weaver]

There you go - $20. Worth adding on to an order for anyone who has designs on grinding their irons by hand. It's quite quick with irons designed for fast grinding (vintage irons, etc).

[Tony Zaffuto]

Just got in from a quick run to the Brown Tool sale (auction is tomorrow). Picked up two stones: a transparent hard arkansas in a box, with the stone about 3-1/2 X 5 and what appears to be a washita (no box), with the stone about 2" X 8" X 1". Clean up needed on the washita. Also got a Simonds DT saw, small anvil, and a Buck Rodgers jack that is easily 98% if not 99%. It will sit on the shelf with my Buck Rodgers smoother that is in the same condition.

Curious to test out the stones (and David, I was given the location of another "honey hole". I'll PM/post where it is on April 11th after my first visit).


I forgot to add the two stones cost me a total of $20 for the pair! Good, vintage stones are still out there! What was missing in the dealer sales were infills, wooden dado's, good mortise gages. Many, many Stanley planes of all types & vintages. Lots of chisels. Fewer saws. Fairly decent number of complex molders & ploughs. Point of my trip was for a few user quality wooden dado's and I only found a couple that were not serviceable or salvageable.

[David Weaver]

Even the single vintage hard ark for $20 is a great deal. To get a possible washita along with it is great, even if it turns out not to be a washita. Look forward to finding a new space, especially if it's anywhere close to the fayetteville to york corridor, as my tires contact those roads with some regularity.

It seems that saws are fairly popular right now, and finding good vintage ones is a bit more difficult than it was 6 or 7 years ago.

Wooden dados in good shape can be tough to find when you're looking for them, too.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Not Fayetteville, closer to Adamstown, about 45 minutes north of Gettysburg. I'll be in that area in two weeks and give a report, comparing it to our "knowns" at Fayetteville.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, i've been through adamstown, even George *used* to go up there before ebay vacuumed everything up. I'll still be glad to hear where it is in adamstown, I get over that way once every couple of years.

[Noah Wagener]

(japense stones are sedimentary, and I guess slates probably are, too).

From what i've read, slate is metamorphosed shale. I have seen Japanese stones called both shale and slate. I do not think there is a clear demarcation line between being a metamorphic slate or a sedimentary shale. I think all stones need a little pressure to form. Except for your travertine. I bet you could make a plaster ball out of the slurry. I think you have definitely tried every stone on earth. What works best on powdered metal, stuff from the Kuiper belt or Oort cloud?

On geology.com they wrote this about shale and slate:

"This confusion of terms partially arises from the fact that shale is progressively converted into slate. Imagine driving your car eastwards in Pennsylvania (underline is by me) through areas of increasing metamorphism, starting where the rock is definitely "shale" and stopping to examine rock at each outcrop. You will have a difficult time deciding where on that route "shale" has been converted into "slate". It can be difficult to pick up a rock and apply the proper name where the rocks have been lightly metamorphosed."

That Pennsylvania was inserted apropos of nothing. I think you were meant to read that and find and the holy of holies, and turn dross into gold. Is Adamstown east of you?

I think i have a crystolon that i thought was a black Ark. I really have no eye for this (Donny, you are out of your element). It is fast but not real rough and it holds together infinitely better than the one coarse water stone i tried. That thing did not last a month.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Definitely another washita and I already knew the other was a transparent hard arkansas ($20 for both, just had to say it again!).

The washita is the most interesting. Cleaned it up last night and it was already pretty flat. In this morning's light, the entire stone (not just the edges) has an opaque look to it and the mottling is very fine. I also took a bit of "Goop" cleaner to it and the stone doesn't have the more typical orangish look to it, closer to a dirty cream color. Got too many things to do today to try the stone but possibly before the weekend is over.

I forgot to mention that at another dealer's bench, there was a very long, single stone in an aluminum housing, with a Norton label on the case. Price was $80 and I was interested until I looked at the stone inside, which was a 3" X about 11 or 12" crystalon, badly dished on both sides. I seen the dealer before and he is the kind of guy that overprices and won't budge. If the stone would have been a natural, I would have paid the price. If the stone would have been flat enough to flatten, I would have made an offer, but the stone was beyond fixing, as far as my needs.

[rod termaat]

Ok. I am still somewhat confused. I really like the idea of a 1 stone set up and I read the recommendation for newbies. If I want to buy 1 stone are there any recommendations for good performer at a decent price. I do know how to sharpen and use primarily an Oregon stone set up with 2 sides of unknown origin. They work ok, but I know there are better options. What can I buy today that will keep my tools sharp and me working without dragging out a multistone set up. Thanks. I am pretty excited about this thread. rod

[bridger berdel]

Coarse stones only for that DMT, obviously. It'll scratch up the surface of any nice hard black or translucent stones.

I use my old worn smooth dmt 600 to dress my surgical black and translucent white stones. the surface it leaves is just about right.

[David Weaver]

Ok. I am still somewhat confused. I really like the idea of a 1 stone set up and I read the recommendation for newbies. If I want to buy 1 stone are there any recommendations for good performer at a decent price. I do know how to sharpen and use primarily an Oregon stone set up with 2 sides of unknown origin. They work ok, but I know there are better options. What can I buy today that will keep my tools sharp and me working without dragging out a multistone set up. Thanks. I am pretty excited about this thread. rod

If you were a beginner here, I could set you up with a washita and show you what I do with it and that's all you'd need to do for everything with the exception of setting up new tools. But the subtleties of using one if you're a beginner and you just want sharp tools and you want them in a reasonable amount of time, synthetics are awfully good. Even the ones that everyone claims aren't good anymore (like a king, though you don't want to buy a king new as there are other stones for the same money that are better) are still very easy to use and make very sharp tools.

I thought when I put this thread together that if I shuffled around my stones, I'd find a few others that would be suitable one stones. Some of them are, but with the caveat that the strop is loaded instead. The dans hard (the inexpensive one and not the true hard) seems like a decent candidate, but the washita is just a bit different.

However, if the strop is loaded with green chromium or pretty much any kind of fine modern compound, all of the stones that are pretty mediocre are plenty good. I am still breaking in the dans hard (which again, is a fairly inexpensive hone).

I can't make the suggestion to people that they buy a washita stone for $150, there just isn't enough there to justify what they cost. I think it's a shame, especially when there is gobs more of it in the ground.

I would *love* it if some of the more experienced folks on here restricted themselves to a single stone and a grinder and bare strop to see if there would be other suitable and less expensive alternatives.

So far, I've ruled out the natural whetstone "hard" stone, it never gets fine enough (though it would be suitable followed by green chorme on leather, and that would certainly be a very cheap route). The dan's hard might be OK, but as much as a new user may find freehand honing off of the flat provided by the hollow ground to be a bit tricky, the dans stone is not as fast as the washita, and maybe not quite as fine with the same technique. It's the best lower cost option I've seen so far, but someone who hones with a guide will find the resulting edge unsatsifactory (plus the stone won't stay flat using a guide).

[rod termaat]

Thanks for the reply David. I guess I should add some qualifications. I do not consider myself a beginner. I have been woodcarving for many years and sell my treen locally. I am not artist or even craftsman's, but I do aspire. Lately I have been building chairs and using a pole lathe learning to turn bowls and such. I am trying to put together a small tool kit for traveling, and thinking about sharpening with the minimal effort and maximum efficiency. I am a serious stropper and feel that I am a better then average hand sharpener. That being said, I know I have much to learn and lurk here daily since 2008. Of course my post count does not reflect this, but....

If someone gave you 100 dollars today and said go buy a sharpening stone, what would you buy? I sharpen carving knives, chisels, spokeshave blades, and the list continues. I would like to buy 1 stone that is low maintenance and gets me to sharp. I do not need scary sharp, just good and sharp. My website is www.rodtermaat.com and needs to be updated, but does document my carving and chair building thus far. Thanks for your insight. rod