Stanley 4 vs 4 1/2

[Scott Stewart]

So I am starting the slippery slope of being a good neanderthal. I am looking for a vintage smoother and at first glance like the 4 1/2. Looks to do more surface (more surface = harder to push) per swipe. What are the advantages of the 4 vs the 4 1/2 (other than being about $50 cheaper on fleabay).

Thanks for you answers.

Scott

[bridger berdel]

it's kind of a preference thing. a 4 will be a bit easier to use around tight spots, places where you have to deal with grain reversals, etc. if this sort of thing is an issue for you, a 2 or 3 might be in order

the 4 shares irons and chipbreakers with the 5. this can be convenient if you tend to do a bunch of sharpening at once. the 4-1/2 shares irons and chipbreakers with the 5-1/5, 6 and 7, something to consider for the same reason.

the 4-1/2 is heavier. some consider this an advantage, some consider it a disadvantage.

I have several 4s. I tend to reach for the 4-1/2 more.

So I am starting the slippery slope of being a good neanderthal. I am looking for a vintage smoother and at first glance like the 4 1/2. Looks to do more surface (more surface = harder to push) per swipe. What are the advantages of the 4 vs the 4 1/2 (other than being about $50 cheaper on fleabay).

Thanks for you answers.

Scott

[Frederick Skelly]

Scott, I cant give you a detailed comparison. But from things Ive read here and elsewhere it always seems to come down to the kind of work you plan to do, plus a fair amount of personal preference. There are guys who seem to love their 4 1/2, and guys who dump them. Im interested in the answers youll get.

Welcome to the slippery slope!
Fred

[Chris Griggs]

I like 4s better. I think they make smoothing quicker and easier since most boards will have cupped a little by the time you smooth them. The narrower sole is better able to navigate the cupping. I do like a large smoother/panel plane, but in those cases I prefer to jump up to a 5 1/2 or a 6.

Lots of people like 4 1/2s but they feel misproportioned to me...like they don't have the navigational advantages of a 4 or 3 nor do they keep things flat the way something equally as wide but longer gives you...that's just me though..maybe someday I'll find a love for 4 1/2, but I have yet to take much of a liking to them...YMMV

[Sean Hughto]

A lot more 4's were sold than 4 1/2's. Then again a lot more 5's were sold than 5 1/2's and yet I really like my 5 1/2 for flattening rough boards. Stanley made several sizes suitable for smoothing - 2/3/4/4.5 ~ sizes suitable for try work - 5/5.5/6 ~ and sizes for jointing - 7/8. The jack, as the name implies can stretch to do any of the tasks (at least pretty well), and my 7 gets plenty of work in flattening surfaces, not just jointing edges. But notice that the 4 1/2 is on the extreme end of the smoother range. One part of a smoother's defining characteristics is its relatively small sole that can ride any minor undulations. A 4 1/2 sole is that much wider, and therefore that much less "maneuverable" in the minor trenches, so to speak. I have a 4 1/2 and rarely reach for it. I guess I can't figure out the tasks were it meaningfully excels. But bottom line, this slope is slippery. You will have them all before long. So it don't really matter the order you buy them. <chuckle>

[David Weaver]

6 of 1, half dozen of the other. If your objective is to do work, either will do the same as the other before you're tired. The adages about doing more with a heavier plane (and the 4 1/2 bedrocks at least are a lot heavier) is hocum.

If money counts, get the 4. If it doesn't, get whatever you like better.

To me, the bedrock (and lie nielsen) 4 1/2s feel like planing with a double thickness frying pan. I use a 4 pretty much for everything, hard or soft, figured or not.

[Winton Applegate]

Here ya go . . .
I will try to boil it down to practical experience

What do you want to plane with it ? Your first projects coming up ?
This is how I see it :

If you need to plane a larger surface like a table top AND it is friendly wood like walnut or cherry etc. GET THE 4-1/2

Unless . . .
the LARGE surface you are going to plane is going to be unfriendly; like really hard stuff more along the lines of rock maple, bubinga, purple heart or the Australian woods I been learning about . . .
Then GET THE #4 because the blade is narrower and will cut longer and easier in the hard stuff.

If your projects coming up are smallish, boxes or small chests of drawers, spice cabinets etc then I think the #4

See how that goes ?

I went really wide right off for a couple of finish planes, because I was dumb/inexperienced and I thought why not go wide ?
For the harder stuff and for a finish plane I LEARNED better.
I still like my wide planes but they have more limitation, believe it or not than the narrower planes. Or lets say the narrower ones are MORE versatile.
anyway . . .

[Winton Applegate]

And further more . . .
I wish to amend that . . .
I think that since you are aiming at a nice vintage plane it is going to depend what comes your way and as some one said

you will have both eventually

or a few of both
so
I suppose if a nice once in a life time deal shows up but you are going to make small stuff or large hard stuff then get the wide any way or visyversy.
I wouldn't want you to pass up the deal of a life time because of my post.
Heck, you can make either work just is not ideal for all projects.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I asked the same question about 20 years ago. At the time, it was suggested that the 4 1/2 had the heft of an infill which made it behave like a Norris A5. I figured that had to be better, so I bought one. Over the years, the planes have multiplied. I can now state the fairly obvious, the 4 1/2 is not an A5, and behaves nearly nothing like one.

As the true experts said above, it's a preference thing. It's good to have several planes tuned differently, use them, and you'll get a feel for what works best for you. Oh, and contrary to some of the entertaining but arcane debates here, there is usually not any one true answer, use what works for you. Personally, I would keep eyes open for a good deal on a #3 too, they make a very nice sized smoother, IMHO.

[Jim Koepke]

So I am starting the slippery slope of being a good neanderthal. I am looking for a vintage smoother and at first glance like the 4 1/2. Looks to do more surface (more surface = harder to push) per swipe. What are the advantages of the 4 vs the 4 1/2 (other than being about $50 cheaper on fleabay).

Thanks for you answers.

Scott

Scott,

Welcome to the Creek. I see you have been around awhile. Your location doesn't show in your profile. If you are in the Portland, OR area you could come by for a test drive.

If you are just starting down the slope my suggestion would be to keep your eyes open, things tend to pop up. Good #4s are all over the place. My #4-1/2 just appeared downstairs in an antique mall one day.

For me usage kind of goes in streaks. Sometimes the #4 is the plane that gets used. Lately my #3 & #4-1/2 get used a lot. It likely has to do more with which one is closer and has the sharpest blades.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I asked the same question about 20 years ago. At the time, it was suggested that the 4 1/2 had the heft of an infill which made it behave like a Norris A5. I figured that had to be better, so I bought one. Over the years, the planes have multiplied. I can now state the fairly obvious, the 4 1/2 is not an A5, and behaves nearly nothing like one.

As the true experts said above, it's a preference thing. It's good to have several planes tuned differently, use them, and you'll get a feel for what works best for you. Oh, and contrary to some of the entertaining but arcane debates here, there is usually not any one true answer, use what works for you. Personally, I would keep eyes open for a good deal on a #3 too, they make a very nice sized smoother, IMHO.

There are all kinds of -isms foisted on newbies, convincing them that people must've been dumb and poor years ago and got by mostly with cheap junk, thus hobbyists with the heels to do it should buy the bigger and heavier and rarer stuff.

Bucking tradition just for the sake of "doing better" than people who have a lifetime of experience doesn't usually yield a lot of tangible results, though. It does, however often result in a lot of wasted time and often a much ligther wallet.

Personally, as a lot of us have done, I started with the "i'll try the junk tools and see if I can get something for nothing" and went to the "I'll buy lots of nice stuff" and somehow settled on where I should've started - I'll buy quality stuff, but if quality isn't the most expensive, I have no need to spend needless money....except on sharpening stones, I'll waste a lot of money on those at times....that's really indefensible.

Anyway, if "blog cool club" says you should get a 4 1/2 (among 8 other specialty planes to smooth certain things) because they read someone else who said you should and they've never dimensioned a few hundred board feet from start to finish by hand, then I'd trust the trail of history about what was used by professionals.

(but even if you're a money sense type - even if it's selective - I will still pick up 4 1/2s when they're priced like 4s).

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Anyway, if "blog cool club" says you should get a 4 1/2 (among 8 other specialty planes to smooth certain things) because they read someone else who said you should and they've never dimensioned a few hundred board feet from start to finish by hand, then I'd trust the trail of history about what was used by professionals.

Completely agree. A while back, FWW did an article on why you need a compass plane. It was funny to watch the prices on the bay go up for a while. I have several compass planes, and can honestly say that I have never deliberately used one for anything other than just to try out.

I'd argue that the ability to differentiate quality from quantity is a foundation skill in hand tools. Keep in mind that two different classes of buyers exist in hand tools, collectors and users. It's fine to be both, but generally speaking, common planes are common because they worked well. That attribute makes them desirable to users, not so to collectors. Pick any of the boutique plane makers as an example, they are obviously collectors items, no one needs a $7000 plane, but as an investment in a work of art, they may make sense to some. Inversely, the #5, the most common plane in existence I think, which works pretty well in many situations, but is a horrible investment plane. So, to wrap it up, a nice Hotley smoother and an clean #5 in great condition may be equally valuable to different folks.


I also agree, I grab 4 1/2's if they are a good deal too. I like their proportions, they look right for some reason.

I think we'd all agree, pretty soon you'll want to try them all, so the slippery slope becomes a cliff at about this point.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, even if you can manage to stick to what was historically used or what is needed and can be used with great effect with some skill, the urge to try what's regarded as better is always a strong urge.

If it wasn't, nobody would buy infill planes or any premium tools, because there's no operation in woodworking where any of them are actually needed.

[Sean Hughto]

I have several compass planes, and can honestly say that I have never deliberately used one for anything other than just to try out.

Have you made any pieces with curves? Admittedly, compass planes are specialty planes, but like other special function planes, when the need arises, they are sure nice to have and use. I don't pull out my 113 on every project, but it's been good to me when I had curved stretchers and panels and so forth. I mean every moldinmg plane is a specialty, but when you want to make a bead it is nice to have a beader or when you want to make a tongue and groove, it's great to have a 48, and so forth.

[Pedro Reyes]

I own both and most times the one I grab is...

... the one I think is sharpest at that moment.

/p