chopping a mortice with a regular bench chisel?

[Jim Matthews]

I took the 9 day course in New York under Mr. Sellers instruction.

The class was also presented with a formica covered guide that was clamped in the vise
with the legs to be mortised. This made for a consistent offset and helped keep the chisels square.
The guide is clamped with the open side away from the user, and the same edge is kept tight
against the guide.

The bevel edged chisel will certainly twist, and try to follow a path that is least resistant.

The essential point of the demonstration is that you can get started with just bevel edged chisels.
I believe Mr. Sellers prefers to work this way, but as mentioned above, he does have years of experience.

I will use my basic Marples chisels to cut shallow mortises, but if the material is tough or I've got lots of mortises to cut,
a Jessem zipslot jig is a welcome appliance. Mortising absolutely wrecks my elbow in ways that chopping dovetails does not.

You can certainly do mortise with a bevel edge chisel, but they've got to be very sharp and a guide jig might be necessary.

http://orepass.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/mortise-guide/

20130713-072544.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

Goodness...I'd take the mortise chisel over the block plane even if the block plane was free and the mortise chisel full price.

If anyone tries to take away my block planes they will be repelled with my mortise chisels.

And should anyone attempt to take away my mortise chisels they will be vigorously pummeled by block planes held proudly in my clenched fists.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Well, if I come across more block planes, I may show up at your shop, and throw the block planes on the floor to distract you and quickly take your mortise chisels (if I can get away with it )

[Frank Drew]

Goodness...I'd take the mortise chisel over the block plane even if the block plane was free and the mortise chisel full price.

I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. A small, true one-handed plane can be ever so useful in multiple situations; note that I included both on the job and at the bench use. You like a No. 4, which I don't, so your mileage clearly varies.

But my main point was the fallacy, IMO, of judging the importance (usefulness?) of a tool by "its place in historical texts and inventories"; that's like saying buggy whips, traditional, long history, therefore very important; computers, very new, not traditional, so not important.

[David Weaver]

I guess buggy whips would be a relevant comparison if we were talking about driving horses for pay in the 18th century vs. now, but it's really not the same.

It's more like comparing a forged chef's knife vs. a bread knife. The latter folks these days seem to think is essential, but I guess they haven't sliced bread with a sharp knife.

[Warren Mickley]

You very much missed my point, Frank. The mortise chisel is considered important not only here today, but is important in other woodworking traditions around the world and has been probably since the Bronze Age. If you think that a bevel edge chisel can replace it, it is hard to imagine that you are really familiar with its use.

[steven c newman]

I don't know about all of that sort of thing. I need some chopped out, so I grab just what I have on hand..SDC14250.jpgHey, it do work, for me. YMMV. Maybe one day, I can save enough to go and BUY a "real" mortise chisel.......

[Kim Malmberg]

My criticism of the video on mortice chisels is that it is going to be interpreted by some as BE chisels as as good as traditional mortice chisels for morticing. For Paul Sellers they may be. He has 30 years of experience. For the odd mortice chopped into soft woods .. why not. But for regular morticing into medium to hard woods ...? Not for me, and I explained why in my earlier post. That is not an attack on Paul Sellers, just answering the question on technique raised by Matthew.

I think Derek is spot on. I like Paul Sellers a lot. Having worked with Englishmen fro the north I don't think Sellers is trying to cheat anyone. I think the perspective Sellers is trying to add is that you don't have to own mortice chisels to chop mortices. I also think he wants to tell us you don't have to make it more diffucult than it has to. From my own experience I know this to be true for soft woods, but the few experiments I've tried with hardwood have not been very successful.
So yes, I agree that mortice chisels ( set up correctly) will be more efficient than regular ones. But what I do think Sellers tries to teach is that you don't have to own expensive tools to try out certain methods or techniques and what I fell is very refreshing about him is that less can really be more. I know I struggle with very hard woods, but to be honest I'm still trying to lawn some basic skills and hardwood isn't on top of my list to conquer. What I fell f so refreshing about Paul Sellers is that he teaches in a way that is is encouraging for beginners and that he (apart from several others) is a rally good teacher. There are many really good woodworkers on the web but very few are actually able to explain the basic steps to people who are struggling with the basics. And if Sellers is making money doing this I don't mind.

[Jim Koepke]

I took the 9 day course in New York under Mr. Sellers instruction.

The class was also presented with a formica covered guide that was clamped in the vise
with the legs to be mortised. This made for a consistent offset and helped keep the chisels square.
The guide is clamped with the open side away from the user, and the same edge is kept tight
against the guide.

The bevel edged chisel will certainly twist, and try to follow a path that is least resistant.

The essential point of the demonstration is that you can get started with just bevel edged chisels.
I believe Mr. Sellers prefers to work this way, but as mentioned above, he does have years of experience.

I will use my basic Marples chisels to cut shallow mortises, but if the material is tough or I've got lots of mortises to cut,
a Jessem zipslot jig is a welcome appliance. Mortising absolutely wrecks my elbow in ways that chopping dovetails does not.

You can certainly do mortise with a bevel edge chisel, but they've got to be very sharp and a guide jig might be necessary.

http://orepass.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/mortise-guide/

20130713-072544.jpg

That certainly doesn't look like any of my bevel edged chisels. Not many of my square edged chisels are that thick.

jtk

[George Vincent]

I have both the Narex bench chisels and mortise chisels, however prior to buying the mortise chisels I used my bench chisels. While they require a bit more work than the mortise chisels, creating a mortise is not impossible just a tad more difficult.

The skill is in the technique and not necessarily the chisel.

[Jim Matthews]

That certainly doesn't look like any of my bevel edged chisels. Not many of my square edged chisels are that thick.jtk

The photo is the only one I've seen to illustrate the guide block.
Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

[Dale Coons]

Well, I don't own any mortise chisels, but was able to make a 3/8 mortise in maple without any problems with a plain old buck bros 3/8 chisel that I had laying around using Seller's method. I suspect it would have been easier/purtier with a real mortise chisel. But if you watch enough of his videos, you'll find he isn't against any method of doing most things, he often shows several ways of doing any particular thing--often just to show you how you can do something if you don't have the 'official' tool. A recent video showed how to taper table legs with....a plane, a saw, a chisel, and an axe. Or another showing how you could do tenons with a saw, a chisel, or a router plane. So as one of the previously mentioned noobs, i'm glad to have a an example using an alternative tool, at least until I am able to acquire a few more.

[Sean Hughto]

Warren, I question including shoulder planes on your list. The tools are defined by being bevel up bedded at 15-20 degrees, and having very tight mouths, and tight body tolerances as the body often registers on other parts of the joint being worked. These attributes made the tool practically undoable until the manufacture of affordable metal planes came along. It might have been imagined, but couldn't be practically offered in wood.

[David Weaver]

I guess the immediate question would be, what do you need a shoulder plane for where a chisel or a rabbet plane isn't just as effective?

[Joel Moskowitz]

Block plane and the shoulder plane are from the 1850's (iron rebate plane being 30 or so years earlier)

Sharpening jig - about 1900 give or take.
Granite plate - last 10 years when cheap Chinese plate came on the market.

Chisels with ferrules and side bevels? About 1850
Machine saw timber - 1500's? actually earlier but water powered saw mills were fairly common (and high tech) pretty early on
Jennings auger bits? mid 19th century again
The circular saw was used in Portsmouth harbor in 1795 but until power transmission was solved it wasn't very common outside of sawmills and large factories.

I mean if you don't use a tool because it's not "Traditional" than you have to decided when "traditional" starts and be consistent. I mean at some point you are just being a reenactor (nothing wrong with that and it's fun) but the reason new tool designs came on the market was because they were more efficient than the designs they replaced. And in many cases the new tools filled a need enabling new technique. The reason real mortise chisels went out of production for about 50 years (WW2 - 2005 abouts) was because there was no demand and plenty of used ones on the market not because they don't work great. Shoulder planes came on the market and stayed on the market because they are real useful in joinery. Block planes - a tool I have never had the urge to own are still made and used because people find them useful.
Paul Sellers reflects one very valid point of view in instruction: If the cost of entry is too high then people won't do it. Other teachers want to teach classical methods that work so the learning curve results in the best efficiency long term - at a higher initial capital cost. You have to find the teacher that speaks to you. Both approaches are perfectly valid - but might not inspire everyone equally.