How do you choose a hang angle when making a saw handle?

[Judson Green]

Thanks to Ron Bontz for the saw plates I'm going to attempt to make two saw handles (one for 10" dovetail, one for a 16" tenon) soon, I've found sites with patterns, but...

How to you determine a pattern that's right for you?

Trial and error? Or is there a some kind of rules/formula a guy could follow?

[David Weaver]

Generally weight of the saw, length of the saw, and height of the handle above the tooth line.

I usually try to find something that I like in an old saw and copy it fairly closely, but you have wiggle room with tooth rake if you make a saw hang too aggressive - as long as you aren't ridiculously far out of spec.

[Judson Green]

Lets just talk dovetail saws to make this simpler. So this one the plate measures 10" long, 2½" tall and currently 15 ppi , 8° rake.


By weight do you mean the entire saw or plate + spine? I guess I have no idea anyway on account of I haven't got a spine (can't help but think of a boneless chicken ranch), nor is the handle made so I can't weigh anything.

Maybe I'm using the term "hang angle" wrong cause I think what I'm really asking is how you would determine how much of your hand you would want above the level of the spine and the preference for one handle angle vs another.

British dovetail saw handle icon.jpg

Marshall & Cheetham icon.jpg

Moses Eadon Dovetail Saw-icon.jpg

Kenyon Dovetail saw-icon.jpg

The first two put your hand completely below the spine, the third increasing the angle and your hand mostly below, the last with the most angle and quite a bit of your hand above the spine.

Do ya just pick one and like it... till ya don't?

[Bill Houghton]

No expert, me, just observations of older Disston and Atkins saws: on those, the gripping part of the handle starts at about the level of the spine and goes up from there. Hang angle - what the angle of the handle is relative to the sawplate - is determined by drawing an imaginary line at right angles to the grip, and looking at where it crosses the tooth line. On the small Disston/Atkins backsaws I own, this happens about an inch in from of the heel of the sawplate (doesn't have to be exact). This differs, by the way, from the hang angle on handsaws, where the hang angle "line" hits the teeth in about the center of the length of the saw.

But I would think the "right for you" is important; how much above the work your shoulder is when you're cutting and that sort of thing. Didn't Pop WW feature someone last year who was conducting research on that subject? Megan Fitzpatrick would know what happened with that guy; there was a photo of her sitting on a sawbench with the guy examining her sawing stance.

[David Weaver]

I would choose the third pattern based on what you've written about the plate and rake.

I'd save the top one for taller saws, and the bottom one for saws that don't have much plate depth. The design of the third one looks nicer than the second (and the fourth and the first).

[Judson Green]

I thought the third one looked prettier too. And was sure hoping you weren't gonna say the top one was the best, guess I could make it look a little better than that.

[Isaac Smith]

In general, the shorter the saw, the higher the hang angle will be. As the hang angle is increased (by rotating the handle), the height of the handle above the spine is also increased.

It's rather fortuitous how this all works out. Shorter saws need a higher hang so that you can direct some of the forward thrust down into the teeth. Shorter saws also tend to have shallower blades, so the increased height of the handle provides clearance at the end of the blade.

That said, the height of the handle above the spine is almost totally irrelevant. If you are concerned about the height of the handle, the toothline is a far more significant reference.

All of these are largely a matter of personal preference, and you will most likely be able to adapt to a range of fits. Your best bet is to look backwards and pick a pattern that pleases your eye (just make sure that it comes from a comparably sized saw).

For what it's worth, the third one is pretty close to what I use in my 10" dovetail saws. It seems to agree with most people who try it out. The one in your picture looks like the hang angle is a little higher than mine, though. If I were starting with that template, I would probably lower it a few degrees. But that's where personal preference comes into play.

[Pedro Reyes]

My understanding is that use will also determine optimal hang angle.

If you will saw with a Moxon vise, closer to eye level, then hang angle should go down, simply to allow for a proper grip of the saw (think how your wrist has to bend the higher your saw is).

Pedro

[Ron Bontz]

Speaking only of back saws. The vast array of vintage saws had many different hang angles. In general, given the same pitch, rake, and fleam, the higher hang angles will be more aggressive. A saw with a hang angle of say 38* will seem to push easier than one with a 45* hang due to more horizontal force being applied on the 38*. A 32* hang angle would be easier yet. ( given the same pitch, rake and fleam ) There is also the question of stance/ body mechanics. Bottom line: See if you can find and try some saws with different hang angles and filings to get a better feel for what YOU like as well as what is comfortable in your hands.

[Judson Green]

Thanks for chiming in Isaac.

I was checking out your website (article on this very subject) before connecting the dots that you are the author.

In general, the shorter the saw, the higher the hang angle will be. As the hang angle is increased (by rotating the handle), the height of the handle above the spine is also increased.

It's rather fortuitous how this all works out. Shorter saws need a higher hang so that you can direct some of the forward thrust down into the teeth. Shorter saws also tend to have shallower blades, so the increased height of the handle provides clearance at the end of the blade.

That said, the height of the handle above the spine is almost totally irrelevant. If you are concerned about the height of the handle, the toothline is a far more significant reference.

All of these are largely a matter of personal preference, and you will most likely be able to adapt to a range of fits. Your best bet is to look backwards and pick a pattern that pleases your eye (just make sure that it comes from a comparably sized saw).

For what it's worth, the third one is pretty close to what I use in my 10" dovetail saws. It seems to agree with most people who try it out. The one in your picture looks like the hang angle is a little higher than mine, though. If I were starting with that template, I would probably lower it a few degrees. But that's where personal preference comes into play.

[Judson Green]

Thanks Ron

I guess my concern is the if the hang angle it too high the saw will be uncomfortable on my wrist, but lacking any real experience, I just don't know. And sadly none of my friends are into woodworking, at least not hand tool woodworking. I guess I need to start somewhere, I can redo it later if I decide I don't like it.

Kinda funny I'm also into sporting clays and have determined that the drop, cast and pull of my gun could be improved. In the bespoke world of shotguns (lots of dollars) they have this thing called a try-gun. In short the butt is adjustable in every way, be kinda cool if there was a try-saw. At least just a hinge or two for finding the right hang angle.

Screenshot_2014-05-02-09-16-47.jpg

Speaking only of back saws. The vast array of vintage saws had many different hang angles. In general, given the same pitch, rake, and fleam, the higher hang angles will be more aggressive. A saw with a hang angle of say 38* will seem to push easier than one with a 45* hang due to more horizontal force being applied on the 38*. A 32* hang angle would be easier yet. ( given the same pitch, rake and fleam ) There is also the question of stance/ body mechanics. Bottom line: See if you can find and try some saws with different hang angles and filings to get a better feel for what YOU like as well as what is comfortable in your hands.

[Bill Houghton]

Kinda funny I'm also into sporting clays...

Do they call it "sporting clays" because you give the clays a five minute head start?

[Jim Koepke]

In the bespoke world of shotguns (lots of dollars) they have this thing called a try-gun. In short the butt is adjustable in every way, be kinda cool if there was a try-saw. At least just a hinge or two for finding the right hang angle.

For my first saw handle something like a try-saw handle was made. It was no where near as elaborate as the try-gun since it was for my own use. It was just a prototype handle made from a scrap piece of pine. No worries about much. If it was an embarrassment there is always a fire place to destroy the evidence.

After making the prototype handle it was used to practice my "air sawing." Any tight spots were also noted on my original template drawing. Also noted was the hold interface for where the sawing was going be done.

One idea that came to me was to cut a slot in this and then instal a blade held by one bolt to adjust the angle. Too much work and a degree or two difference isn't going to be the end of the world.

My knowledge of how to define a hang angle has me convinced that it is better for me to listen to such conversations. That didn't stop me from making a handle that is very satisfying, at least for me, to use. No idea what the hang angle might be.

These are things we have to decide on for ourselves. My bench height compared to my standing height factored in with my arm angles will likely be different than all of those considerations for anyone else.

When we make a tool we have to make it our own. Having the same saw hang angle as Frank Klausz isn't what will make you as good of a cabinet maker as Frank Klausz.

jtk

[Judson Green]

For my first saw handle something like a try-saw handle was made. It was no where near as elaborate as the try-gun since it was for my own use. It was just a prototype handle made from a scrap piece of pine. No worries about much. If it was an embarrassment there is always a fire place to destroy the evidence.

After making the prototype handle it was used to practice my "air sawing." Any tight spots were also noted on my original template drawing. Also noted was the hold interface for where the sawing was going be done.

One idea that came to me was to cut a slot in this and then instal a blade held by one bolt to adjust the angle. Too much work and a degree or two difference isn't going to be the end of the world.

My knowledge of how to define a hang angle has me convinced that it is better for me to listen to such conversations. That didn't stop me from making a handle that is very satisfying, at least for me, to use. No idea what the hang angle might be.

These are things we have to decide on for ourselves. My bench height compared to my standing height factored in with my arm angles will likely be different than all of those considerations for anyone else.

When we make a tool we have to make it our own. Having the same saw hang angle as Frank Klausz isn't what will make you as good of a cabinet maker as Frank Klausz.

jtk

"Air-sawing" love it!

When ever I talk about things like this with my non-woodworking friends I get the blank stare, one of em said "dude, post it on your wood nerd site."

I know I've gotta just do it and that's just what I'm gonna do.

But I very much appreciate a few words of wisdom.

[Mike Siemsen]

Speaking only of back saws. The vast array of vintage saws had many different hang angles. In general, given the same pitch, rake, and fleam, the higher hang angles will be more aggressive. A saw with a hang angle of say 38* will seem to push easier than one with a 45* hang due to more horizontal force being applied on the 38*. A 32* hang angle would be easier yet. ( given the same pitch, rake and fleam ) There is also the question of stance/ body mechanics. Bottom line: See if you can find and try some saws with different hang angles and filings to get a better feel for what YOU like as well as what is comfortable in your hands.

I don't agree with Ron here. the most agressive saws have the lowest hang angles. Look at the relation ship to the toothline of a bucksaw or a felling saw. what about a large frame resaw where the handles are right at the toothline. These are the most agressive saws out there. The discussion on hang doesn't often include the fact the all of the characteristics of a saw change if you change one. What is typically seen is that the rake relaxes as the hang goes up , a Gabriel saw from the 18th century has the handle right down near the toothline and a 0 degree rake. A more modern Disston with it's higher hang angle would have a 4 degree or more angle of rake. Since it takes far less power to run a 10 inch backsaw with its tiny teeth the handle can behigher on the saw.