Kudos to David Barron and his magnetic dovetail guides

[Joe Leigh]

If there wasn't a way to generate money using these devices, I don't think they'd exist, and the users of them would be better off working straight away to figure out what their sawing problem is.

Maybe not but there also has to be a perceived need. I thought the important thing was to actually produce wooden items and not necessarily proceed in the same manner as someone who died 300 years ago.
Besides, if it gives the OP more confidence or produces a finer result for him, does anything else really matter?

[David Weaver]

This confidence thing is interesting to me. there's all sorts of things that I don't do very well in woodworking, and it's not confidence that I want first, I want the skill. That's my personal preference.

There are certainly things that I'd say don't worry how you do it, like the lute rose that george carved - if you could do that by hand, eye and mind, more power to you no matter how you do it. But we are talking about one of the fundamentally easiest things to do in woodworking where mastery of a simple skill involved is one that can be spun off and used in many other places.

If the aim is to make a case with otherwise completely machine dimensioned and sanded, etc, parts, where the only thing done by hand is the dovetails, then I guess I don't see what difference it really makes. Sawing tenons, working to a line, etc, is never going to be that important.

If the objective is to learn to cut all kinds of joints, work to a line, mark things, etc, then we would be far better served trying to at least get relatively close to the same manner as those who died 300 years ago.

I did a survey of the dovetails in my parents' furniture last year. Unfortunately, I took pictures with my cell phone instead of a camera and they turned out to be horrible pictures. As often as we do like to say dovetails are not perfect, they definitely weren't perfect, but every one of them was at least what I'd call handsomely done and in good proportion. The proportion and the handsomeness was FAR more important than whether or not each line was precisely sawn. I did not see gaps in them in this furniture (nearly ever piece of furniture had hand done half blinds in the front and through dovetails in the back - this all being furniture 100 years old or older, where the joints were done by hand, but the wood was probably planed by a planer - mid grade furniture, something a commoner probably wouldn't have had but by no means furniture for the elites only.

The interesting thing about it is, like I said, it was all sawn well, but no perfectly in every instance, BUT the proportions of the dovetails and drawer sides were far nicer than most of the stuff we are turning out as amateurs - in terms of most of what I see here. And it was the type of furniture that we will all make at some point, or at least most of us will, because it had nice subtle detail like flush drawers and maybe some basic line inlay in some of it, but it didn't have elaborate carving or anything like that.

Now, on the flip side of all of this stuff, there were aspects about these drawers that would've made them a little easier than a lot of the amateur stuff that's done - there were no sides thicker than half inch, and there was no really hard wood used in any of them. But the evidence of their execution was that they were done at speed and with skill. No big gaps, and the worst offenses I saw in them were a few stray overcuts from saws.

It's my opinion that if one wants to migrate past just the joints these gadgets, jigs, gizmos and crutches help with, then the skills need to be had first. If one does not (perhaps only cutting through dovetails is all some folks want out of hand tools), then no big deal.

That's my opinion, it may not be seen as helpful to someone with sawing trouble, but I already provide my solution - one saw stroke at a time to the side of a line - it'll be hard to get off course doing that, and easier than fiddling with a gadget, and it's easier to find the gadget you need in your drawers when the gadget is....no gadget. Speed can be increased as results are reasonable. Sort of the same concept that works in an awful lot of places (like music for example)....learn to go slow before you go fast.

[Shawn Pixley]

So following this logic that sawing to a line is a necessary skill (please note I am not arguing against this), does a miterbox fall onto the "gadget" category with the dovetail guides?

[paul cottingham]

Shawn, your tag line seems to fit well with the inevitable result of your question......

And a fine question it is too.....

[David Weaver]

I guess it would depend. I'm not quite sure where it's necessary. I bought one several years ago and have had a difficult time figuring out where it's useful.

I'd be interested in hearing how often warren Mickley uses one. They strike me as being a carpenter's tool.

[Joe Leigh]

Interesting points Dave. In just about every antique example of casework that I've seen in the age group you mentioned, my hand cut dovetails (no crutch needed) are much more refined and tighter. My question is did I get too good at it? Should I not have practiced so much? Was that wasted time? Of course not.

So why hold the drawer joinery on some hundred year old sideboard as the benchmark? Am I supposed to progress only as far as that and no further?

Ive seen many examples of David Barron's work. He is a very highly skilled woodworker, meticulous and precise. Any tool, his or another's, that gets people more involved in learning about woodworking and expanding their skillset to include handwork is a good thing.

[Shawn Pixley]

I've always been thought of as a trouble-maker...

[David Barnett]

In your fatwa of forum machismo,
You adjure against gadget and gizmo,
So we bullies should silence,
Our lexical violence,
Keep quiet and mind our own biz mo'.

[Mel Fulks]

David, that is funny! Reminds me of Ogden Nash.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I think of a miter box more as a carpenter's tool, but I think were it really shines repeating a lot of pieces of the same length, and making accurate angles (whether or 90 degrees or otherwise) without marking; I think a lot of us could probably make the majority of the cuts a miter box does without one, and to that level of accuracy, but I would need to mark them first to cut to level of accuracy. I can get pretty close to 90 without marking across the stock if things are narrow, (and being narrow, just shooting the edge is pretty quick to fix any out of square) but grabbing a square and a knife or pencil is needed for anything wider. If you're doing a lot of sawing, being able to remove that marking step and just work off a tick mark could make things faster. If you're marking parts off of each other or working in another fashion, it's less of a time saver. Just my opinion, I s'pose.

[David Weaver]

Interesting points Dave. In just about every antique example of casework that I've seen in the age group you mentioned, my hand cut dovetails (no crutch needed) are much more refined and tighter. My question is did I get too good at it? Should I not have practiced so much? Was that wasted time? Of course not.

So why hold the drawer joinery on some hundred year old sideboard as the benchmark? Am I supposed to progress only as far as that and no further?

Ive seen many examples of David Barron's work. He is a very highly skilled woodworker, meticulous and precise. Any tool, his or another's, that gets people more involved in learning about woodworking and expanding their skillset to include handwork is a good thing.

it's the benchmark because the proportions are ideal, well thought out and not just a willy nilly thought in an amateur woodworker's fleeting moment of design.

You can choose how you like to make yours, how tidy, how long you want to take, whether or not you want them to show. Someone who hasn't got the experience to decide yet whether or not theirs are neat enough really is, in my opinion, barking up the wrong tree looking for power tool fit of the joints - they will almost certainly get close to that just with experience. and as tight as they want to go if they are willing to slow down.

There is a fork in the road. In one direction, you look at your problem and solve it (knowing you can because thousands and thousands of others have), or you lease/purchase a solution of a different type. This is a precedent that gets set. The first builds a skill, and the second builds a bad habit.

[David Weaver]

In your fatwa of forum machismo,
You adjure against gadget and gizmo,
So we bullies should silence,
Our lexical violence,
Keep quiet and mind our own biz mo'.

Excellent. Of course, we've come to expect it, but excellent!

[george wilson]

You are an educated man,Barnett!!!!

[Steve Voigt]

In your fatwa of forum machismo,
You adjure against gadget and gizmo,
So we bullies should silence,
Our lexical violence,
Keep quiet and mind our own biz mo'.

David, I've submitted a request to the moderators of the forum that they delete any posts from you that are not in anapestic meter.

[Daniel Rode]

You make a good point. If one's goal is to produce wooden items as quickly and efficiently as possible, then one set of tools, techniques and skills might fit better than another. For speed and efficiency, A CNC router is hard to beat. On a smaller, cheaper scale a set of modern power tools might be fast and efficient.

But for me, speed and efficiency don't count for much. I want to learn and practice the skills that may well have been employed by a craftsman 100 or 300 years ago. In my slow, plodding, clumsy way I want to try to become a craftsman. This is, to me, completely distinct from the operatives that interacted with machines beginning with the industrial revolution. It's a nostalgic desire that looks back to a lost age.

Because this is 2014 and because the time I can devote to woodworking is limited, I'm not against guides, aides or automation. In fact, I make significant use of power tools so I can focus on specific types of skills. I pick and choose as I see fit. Some might suggest that I should do it all with hand tools. They can do what they please in their own shops

FWIW, I've yet to use a guide that gave me any sort of confidence. They might give a finer result at first but in the long run I believe working without guides is what builds confidence and fine work is usually the result of highly skilled hands not highly refined aides. Repetition seems to be the thing that gives me confidence and finer results.

Maybe not but there also has to be a perceived need. I thought the important thing was to actually produce wooden items and not necessarily proceed in the same manner as someone who died 300 years ago.
Besides, if it gives the OP more confidence or produces a finer result for him, does anything else really matter?