Backwards

[Shawn Pixley]

Backwards!

Southern California Edison gave us our PTO (Permit to Operate) for the solar array. So, after flipping the breakers, charging the disconnect, turning the unit on, and waiting for it to warm up and calibrate, the meter reversed and ran backward even at six in the evening. I am so excited. The May bill won't be particularly low, but I look forward to seeing June's (I never thought I would say this about a bill).

[Raymond Fries]

Awesome...

Enjoy the savings! maybe a new tool treat to celebrate with the extra money.

Enjoy Life

[Greg Peterson]

Oklahoma is frowning on solar.

"The prospect of widespread adoption of rooftop solar worries many utilities. A report last year by the industry's research group, the Edison Electric Institute, warns of the risks posed by rooftop solar (PDF). 'When customers have the opportunity to reduce their use of a product or find another provider of such service, utility earnings growth is threatened," the report said. "As this threat to growth becomes more evident, investors will become less attracted to investments in the utility sector.''

The energy sector has a stake in keeping users on the grid. It would be extremely disruptive to the energy sector if large swaths of society were to adapt solar and drive plugin electric cars. Turning one's house into a energy plant, albeit a small one, is a disturbing thought I'm sure.

Congrats on your solar installation. What do you expect the ROI to be?

[Justin Ludwig]

Oklahoma is frowning on solar.

"The prospect of widespread adoption of rooftop solar worries many utilities. A report last year by the industry's research group, the Edison Electric Institute, warns of the risks posed by rooftop solar (PDF). 'When customers have the opportunity to reduce their use of a product or find another provider of such service, utility earnings growth is threatened," the report said. "As this threat to growth becomes more evident, investors will become less attracted to investments in the utility sector.''

The energy sector has a stake in keeping users on the grid. It would be extremely disruptive to the energy sector if large swaths of society were to adapt solar and drive plugin electric cars. Turning one's house into a energy plant, albeit a small one, is a disturbing thought I'm sure.

Congrats on your solar installation. What do you expect the ROI to be?

It's a sad state of affairs, Greg, but the US is capitalistic and driven by profit. T. Boone Pickens doesn't like the prospect of his billions being invested in Wind and Natural Gas energies being thrown down the proverbial drain.

[David Weaver]

The issue is a little bit less nefarious than Greg is making it out to be. They are doing two things:
* advising shareholders, and those shareholders are mostly individuals and retirement plans, etc.
* what greg didn't mention is that a lot of the concern has to do with the cost of keeping up the grid. When net metering is allowed, a user is still using the grid, but if they net out to zero, they are paying nothing to use it. A utility still has expenses to keep up the grid and those are going to have to be paid by someone. A lot of the utilities offloaded generation years ago because it looked like distribution was going to be more fiscally sound. Generation now, especially in the days of natural gas, can pop up quickly and be done very inexpensively.

I'd have an array just like Shawn, but if I were a utility that spent a bunch of money on the electric grid and was face with no shrink in ongoing costs but a decline in revenue, I'd be sounding the alarm, too.

[Greg Peterson]

The issue is a little bit less nefarious than Greg is making it out to be. They are doing two things:
* advising shareholders, and those shareholders are mostly individuals and retirement plans, etc.
* what greg didn't mention is that a lot of the concern has to do with the cost of keeping up the grid. When net metering is allowed, a user is still using the grid, but if they net out to zero, they are paying nothing to use it. A utility still has expenses to keep up the grid and those are going to have to be paid by someone. A lot of the utilities offloaded generation years ago because it looked like distribution was going to be more fiscally sound. Generation now, especially in the days of natural gas, can pop up quickly and be done very inexpensively.

I'd have an array just like Shawn, but if I were a utility that spent a bunch of money on the electric grid and was face with no shrink in ongoing costs but a decline in revenue, I'd be sounding the alarm, too.

My original post did include your argument, therefore I did not feel the need to provide additional arguments in favor of taxing wind and solar energy creators/users.

ALEC is sponsoring the industries interests in the arena. I think it would be unhelpful to presume they are empathetic to individuals who wish to be proactive in their personal energy solutions. ALEC is trying to build an even greater barrier than that which stands between the current system (pun not intended) and residential energy independence.

They are looking to make the investment into residential solar unattractive and economically challenging, pushing the RIO out farther yet. I understand the energy utilities concerns about institutional investors moving their funds elsewhere, but isn't that a function of a free market?

[Brian Elfert]

One problem with solar is the power company is they are buying your power for retail price and then selling it to someone else for the same retail price. They don't collect any money to pay for their overhead or the cost of distribution nor do they make any profit. The only way they make any money on buying back solar is if they can reduce the purchase of extra electricity at peak times. Buying electricity at peak times is very expensive for the power company and often costs more than they sell the power for.

I wouldn't mind doing solar if it didn't cost so darn much up front. The other disadvantage with grid tie is the solar system won't produce electricity when utility power is out. I'm sure they don't want line workers killed by electricity back fed into the system, but why can't they have a switch that opens when there is no utility power?

[David Weaver]

They are looking to make the investment into residential solar unattractive and economically challenging, pushing the RIO out farther yet. I understand the energy utilities concerns about institutional investors moving their funds elsewhere, but isn't that a function of a free market?

It's one thing to describe it as a boo hoo argument about investors, but another thing entirely when there is a chance it will threaten upkeep and maintenance of the grid. Not long ago, we heard how the grid was going to be upgraded so that alternative energy could be generated in one part of the country and distributed elsewhere. If net metering is common and the power companies are to continue to maintain the grid, then they will charge more for distribution, there's no other way for them to keep it in place. Items that are absolute necessities never really have been a free market (food, power, etc, because when you absolutely need to turn on a light or use electricity to run some sort of in home personal healthcare device, you're not going to want to have someone say, well, the free market removed the grid and you'll have to wait until tomorrow when the sun is out).

[Tom Stenzel]

The power company fixed the problem in my neighborhood. The new smart meters just installed run FORWARD no matter which way the power goes through it. You pay for the power you put on the grid.

-Tom

[David Weaver]

Tom, what state are you in? To my knowledge, my state is still a net metering state, but we also have "dumb" meters, too (and not so good prospects for solar electricity or wind because of the sun and wind deficiency for either).

[Jim Laumann]

Shawn

Could you post some pics of your setup - panels and the controller, etc in your house. Wife and I are considering it (solar power) for next summer.

Thanks

Jim

[Myk Rian]

I'm sure they don't want line workers killed by electricity back fed into the system, but why can't they have a switch that opens when there is no utility power?

Those are already available for when running a generator.

[Shawn Pixley]

The energy sector has a stake in keeping users on the grid. It would be extremely disruptive to the energy sector if large swaths of society were to adapt solar and drive plugin electric cars. Turning one's house into a energy plant, albeit a small one, is a disturbing thought I'm sure.

Congrats on your solar installation. What do you expect the ROI to be?

Recently, there have been several court cases lost by states and utility companies who were trying to avoid connecting small enery generating facilities (read home solar / fuel cell). California as a state is leading in the adoption of clean energy with some aggressive targets. In summer we can be subject to rolling blackouts and clean energy distributed minimizes the need for new large scale generation as well as more distribution imfrastructure. With this in mind, solar is pretty accepted here. There are both local rebates as well as a one-time tax credit.

We are in a tiered rate structure. The bottom two tiers are at or below the cost of producing & distributing electricity. Tiers 3,4, and 5 are above that rate. Tier 4 is 36 cents per KWH. There is a neighborhood baseline established for areas which determines the KWH for the Tiers. Our neighborhood has a lot of trophy houses and vacation rentals in addition to about 30 full-timers so the tiers are lower than other areas. For us we bought down to either break even in terms of energy production vs consumption. If energy stays the same price and our consumption remains at the same rate, we will break even in seven years. I think the chance of electricity rates not rising very small. If energy prices rise by 5%, then it pays back faster than 5 years.

There are a lot of variables in these calculations (days of sunlight, price of natural gas, distribution upgrades, degradation of the panels, etc.) so I montecarloed the variables. My main reason for doing this is to reduce outgoing money for when I retire. That may be a few years away, but it seems to be prudent to plan early as well as do the right thing for the earth. We are big into energy / resource efficiency and recycling. You know, that greener southern California surfer dude thing...

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I am curious how this works in certain instances. More specifically.... If I have a whole house generator, I disconnect the house from the grid so that I do not backfeed the power onto the line and potentially electrocute a lineman. Similarly, if the line is shorted, I also do not want to backfeed the line.

How does this type of concern work with solar?

Note: I mean because you are feeding power back.

[Brian Elfert]

Those are already available for when running a generator.

Yes, I have an automatic transfer switch for my standby generator. The thing is, almost all solar systems that are grid tie will cut the power generation ability altogether when utility power is lost. It wouldn't be a transfer switch, but just something that opens the connection to utility power when utility power is lost.