Kitchen Knife question-- White steel vs O1 steel

[Matt Lau]

I've recently gotten obsessed with paring knives. I'm thinking of commissioning paring knife blades from Jim Wester of North Bay Forge. It'll be profiled off of a 3.5" Nogent Sabatier blade blank. It'll likely be hand forged W1 or O1 steel. Any thoughts? When I look into the cost of having the blades made, handle materials, and time--I wonder if it'd be cheaper to just go with a nice Japanese petty knife. I'd love your thoughts on hand forged W1/O1 steel vs white steel, blue steel... Anyways, it's a nutty project. I'm not sure if I should just abort now.

[David Weaver]

Japanese petty knife in blue or white steel, it'll be made from prelaminated material and it will be harder and thinner than O1 profiles will be, and feel sharper.

Years ago, I bought a tanaka low budget santoku made of blue #2 for about $55. Stan told me that they make most of the knives out of prelaminated material (and even a low temp forger like murray carter appears to get the prelaminated / rikizai and hammers it on knives costing $500 or more).

Anyway, I'm still surprised how good the blue #2 knife is, and I'm not afraid to do anything with it because it's inexpensive. It is above and beyond any western knife I've ever used, incredibly sharp. I can imagine white 2 would be even better, and white 1 would be a risk since it's harder to forge.

At any rate, rikizai blue 2 or white 2 is probably superior to anything that you can do with O1 or w1 no matter how many times you hit it and how low the forging temperature.

[Matt Lau]

Thanks for the info. I think that you may have saved me a ton of time/money.

[george wilson]

I have a 6" Japanese kitchen knife from Lee Valley which is quite a good knife. Cost me about $29.00 several years ago. A very thin carbon steel center,with stainless sides laminated onto the core. It will get VERY sharp.

[Kim Malmberg]

Sharp enough to shave hair off tomatoes?

[Phil Thien]

Sharp enough to shave hair off tomatoes?

After first cutting a can in half?

[Dave Cullen]

Unhandled Japanese style blades can be had here:
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/knwinoha.html

There are some really serious kitchen knife freaks here:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forum.php

[george wilson]

Sorry,I haven't found a tomato who is willing to let me shave her.

But yes,the LV knife will take a truly razor sharp edge. I'm very happy with it,and it didn't cost a fortune.

[David Weaver]

Blue 2 will get sharp enough and hold it at a gradual enough angle that I generally keep that knife in a cabinet now (wife hates it and I have a young experimenting daughter who would love to try it) and get it out when the random person comes over and pops off about how sharp their knives are, etc.

I haven't had any professional chefs over (they would probably appreciate the sharpness for vegetables), but everyone else has requested to use the german knives after cutting a little bit with it. For the $55 or so that knife cost, it's absolutely heavenly to use in fruits and vegetables, especially if you have anything that's a bit watery or on the ripe side of ripe.

If I was going to spend money on anything "more advanced", I'd want proof that it was hammered at low temperature, because there's not a lot to gain above and beyond that unless the rikizai (or actual hand lamination in rare cases) is hammered at low temperature and heat treated at low heat.

It is a little bit annoying that there are a lot of knives out there in the $350-$900 range that are somewhat obscure about how they're actually made. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them are just rikizai/pre-laminated material with a lot of cosmetic attention and a lack of low temperature hammer and heat treat, but maybe someone like Stan Covington can confirm that.

The low cost knife I have was specified to be 62-63 hardness. That's probably about where it actually is, and is a good spot for blue and white steel - harder than that unless it was an ultra talented smith, and a knife might be chippy and less tolerant of natural stones.

[Matt Lau]

David, what knife are you talking about? It sounds nice!

I sharpen only with water stones--usually a small yellow Japanese natural finisher.

I'm not sure what Rockwell hardness Jim does, but he's plenty talented. His carving knives take and hold a better edge than anything I own (including my white steel chisels).

In any case, I appreciate all the info.

[David Weaver]

http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/30

Costs a little more now, unfortunately, but great knife. A spec reader might get concerned that it doesn't say hardness 66 or something, but in reality, it's a very good working hardness and gets sharp very easily on natural stones.

Fujibato has a decent picture of the spine - it's not a heavy knife.

http://www.330mate.com/product/239

(scroll down to see it).

My wife was disappointed when i first got it that you couldn't put it in the dishwasher. I never actually put any nice knives in the dishwasher - knives are easy to clean and a dishwasher is a good way to make a knife dull. Now she just hates it because of its sharpness. it moves through fruits and vegetables like a ghost.

A properly made low temperature forged and heat treated knife would be much tougher ( in terms of things you might accidentally do to get small chips ), but at several multiples of the cost and I'd want someone like stan covington to help me if I wanted a knife like that, because I think a lot of things that are sold on the expert market are made cosmetically sound and would not stand up to the demands of an educated japanese buyer (as in, it would be easy to spend a lot more time on finish and put a fancy handle on a knife and bring it to a bright clean polish with sharp edges and sides....and still make it out of rikizai that had no hammer time). We all have sharpening stones and the ability to them, though, so it holds its edge just fine for all of us.

[Matt Lau]

Any thoughts on Swedish steel?

I got my first fancy J knife (Ashi Hamono, Swedish steel 100 mm petty, 58-59 Rockwell) from Bernal Cutlery.

It's quite a good knife. Not perfect, but very sharp.

[Derek Cohen]

With all this information it is most tempting to make a few more knives for the kitchen. However I have learned that my wife lacks the level of reverence (fanaticism) for tools, as displayed by myself and others here. She insists on cutting on top of granite ..... Anyone care to suggest a steel that cuts granite rather than vise versa?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Fleck]

With all this information it is most tempting to make a few more knives for the kitchen. However I have leaned that my wife lacks the level of reverence (fanaticism) for tools, as displayed by myself and others here. She insists on cutting on top of granite ..... Anyone care to suggest a steel that cuts granite rather than vise versa?

Regards from Perth

Derek

PM-V11....the word on the street is that it can do most anything.

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

I have a cutting board heavy enough that it has become a permanent fixture, for all intents and purpose. My wife is handy with the knife, but has a terrible habit of cleaning the knife along the edge and then tossing it into the metal drying rack, so now I do most of the cutting and then immediately clean and dry the knife to put it back into the knife holder. I have some beeswax cutting board finish that I regularly maintain it with.

On the general topic; I'm strongly considering a Hontanren forged blue steel knife. They're not crazy expensive like the clay heat treated blades, but not cheap either. It's aesthetically pleasing and yes, I'm one of the few idiots willing to pay more for it to look pretty. Otherwise seems to have been made with no consideration for western appeal, which I appreciate. Many of the more famous makers seem to want a high appeal in the western markets.

I have actually had a professional chef over to cook for the two of us, she was very impressed at how I kept my knives in general, which likely means I have no real reason to want to switch. Still I want to scratch the itch and get a cool japanese knife.