Lie Nielsen A2 issue?

[Patrick Carpenter]

Has anyone else been a little underwhelmed by A2 plane blades from LN? I have a 60 1/2 block plane that is just awesome in almost every aspect but one. It gets pretty sharp, but does not seem to hold up well at all. Mostly when paring end grain it seems like it never takes more than 5-10 cuts before the edge starts giving up. Nothing super serious, but there's visible deformation on the cutting edge and it'll start leaving little micro-lines behind.
I think Hock (and maybe Pinnacle) make replacements that will fit this plane. Any opinions on either of these two, or any other makers? Am I crazy or do I remember seeing laminated replacement block plane blades by a Japanese maker. Maybe Tsunesaburo...?

[Jim R Edwards]

I have had problems with Lee Valley blade edges crumbling but never Lie Nielsen. The A2 blades are my favorite.

[glenn bradley]

I have had problems with Lee Valley blade edges crumbling but never Lie Nielsen. The A2 blades are my favorite.

Different experience here . Seems how we sharpen, what we do with the cutters and how we do it must influence our experiences.

[lowell holmes]

That's why I made my post. If my edge needs sharpening during a session, I just stop and hone it, strop it and go back to work. That's how I learned when I was going to classes at Homestead Heritage.

After I learned to freehand sharpen, it was easy, actually the time sharpening, 2 or 3 minutes, is a restful break. I don't have much edge problem.

I have LV A2 irons in my bench planes. I think the steel is good. I do use the ruler trick.

[Patrick Carpenter]

That would be ideal, but in a production environment (i.e. at work) I can't really do that. I'm on the job site most of the time, but even in the shop, a lot of employers have a real problem seeing someone stop and take out a sharpening stone. A strop... whew. My current boss would settle for ridicule, but some would go for the full blow up. It's one of the unwritten rules. Show up at least 10 minutes early everyday. Sharpen your tools on your own time.
I guess I should have mentioned that I have other blades in Blue or White steel that do just fine, and my old Stanley (which was inferior in most other ways) did a little better on longevity too.

[David Dalzell]

I don't know much about A2 v O1, but sometimes irons need to be sharpened several times to grind away the over brittle edges on new steel. The thin leading edge may cause problems on a new blade. How often have yoy sharpened it since you acquired it?

[Stanley Covington]

I have 15 or so LN planes and other edged tools, all A2 steel. I think it is a good steel, as far as it goes. It is intended to provide ease of manufacturing and consistent quality for high-end mass-produced tools. It is not intended to give the best cutting edge possible.

David Weaver will disagree with me, but it dulls quickly, in my experience. A2 will not get as sharp, or hold a sharp edge as long as a well-made vintage blade, or a good quality Japanese plane blade, or even a Hock blade. But sharpness is not everything.

The saving grace with A2 steel is that, after it dulls to a certain point, it will keep on cutting for a long time, not clean glossy cuts, but good enough to waste material. And, if the blade strikes grit, the edge does not chip as deeply as plain high-carbon steel blades do.

Satisfaction comes from holding easily-obtained expectations.

So I guess my conclusion is that it is an OK, but not great, tool steel.

Tsunesaburo makes a Stanley plane replacement blade that is laminated steel. It is thin. It is made from rikizai (pre-laminated steel originally developed for making kitchen knives) and not hand-forged, but it is nonetheless good steel (reasonable expectations, again), and reasonably priced. Mine cuts better than the stock LN blade. I suppose it might work in an LN plane, but I have never tried it.

Stan

[ian maybury]

There's fairly consistent reports about on the web that A2 needs a slightly higher bevel angle than carbon steel/O1 to avoid edge chipping in some situations. e.g. this description of the issue and comparison of the relative strengths and weaknesses of both by Ron Hock came up in a search i made recently: http://www.hocktools.com/A2.htm It's no doubt not by accident that e.g. Lee Valley offer their blades in both A2 and O1 (and now their new steel too) - if one or other steel covered all the bases in everybody's view they likely wouldn't feel the need to do so..

[george wilson]

All tool steels (save the PM metals,possibly. They are LEFT OUT of my comments,as I haven't enough experience with them yet.),are a balancing act between durability and keen ness. NOTHING,NOTHING,NOTHING,will get as sharp as plain carbon steel,like W1. 1095 is in this W1 class of steel. Start adding a little alloy,and you have 01,oil hardening steel. It is a bit more durable on the cutting edge than W1,but it just WILL NOT get quite as sharp. It is a more forgiving steel when hardening. It warps and cracks a lot less than W1,which has to be shocked severely by quenching in water.

Add some chrome,and you have A2,which is great stuff. It hardly changes dimension at all when AIR cooling. I make all of our punch and die sets out of it(I'd use HSS,but don't have an inert gas furnace). A2 will not get as sharp as 01. It is further down the line. If hardened and tempered correctly,it will hold an edge longer than 01. It needs a steeper cutting angle on the edge. Add more chrome,12%,and a few other alloying metals,and you have D2,a metal designed for shearing other metals. It,once again,will not hold an edge as sharp as A2. I have a pocket knife made from it,which has proved a disappointment. It will very quickly lose a shaving sharp edge,BUT,seems to stay just below the completely sharp level forever. D2 would make great punches and dies,except it is a bit too brittle to suit me. I don't want corners breaking off a die when my wife doesn't get the die and punch set in perfect alignment. Some dies are a lot of work to make,and the holes they mate to have to be perfectly fitted,so they'll shear paper clean as a whistle.

These are the 4 steels I have used the most. They have to be used for their appropriate uses. APPROPRIATE USES are the key words here. I can't stress that enough. And,their cutting geometry has to be adjusted to suit their properties.

When I have to plane the most un planeable material(like skiving the fuzzy suede off of chrome tanned ray skin(a nearly impossible task with a plane!!),ONLY a W1 blade will do. When planing an obnoxious wood that is hard on blades,A2 is a better choice.

I took pity on the coopers in the museum,always planing hard white oak out in the freezing or burning hot weather. I secretly made them a few hand forged A2 blades for their jointers. They were very grateful. And,the tourists would never be able to tell!!

Their blades had to plane huge numbers of linear feet of white oak,making curved staves out of straight white oak blanks.

[David Barnett]

...and forgive this diversion from the OP.

When I have to plane the most un planeable material(like skiving the fuzzy suede off of chrome tanned ray skin(a nearly impossible task with a plane!!),ONLY a W1 blade will do. When planing an obnoxious wood that is hard on blades,A2 is a better choice.

I have a 1095 English parer I've used for skiving shagreen/galuchat since my days as a bookbinder (nearly four decades ago). Where I used to find thinner and less challenging baby hides of good quality, nowadays most chrome-tanned hides are larger and as thick, tough and as hard on cutting edges as anything I've ever worked.

I've used just about everything to thin and pare the body of ray leather; spokeshaves, rasps, bench planes, razor and Rali planes, flexshafts and so on, but for turned edges, I'll stick with my extremely sharp low-beveled English parer off a well-worn hard-calendered horse butt strop.

The top-quality John Fong hides sold for cordwaining took some real work to thin for furniture, boxes, lamps, clocks, cabinet pulls and small leather items such as jewelry and watchbands, but the effort was worth it. I used to sand the more fine-grained skins but for larger skins with bolder placoid scales I now prefer files.

Interesting subject; galuchat and woodworking.

[Glenn Samuels]

George, thank you for the explanation is this information is new to me.
Glenn

[lowell holmes]

I keep a diamond hone and strop on the bench for touch up when needed.

It keeps me from fretting about such things.

I learned that from Homestead Heritage back in '02.

[Chris Griggs]

Raise the angle a few degrees. If you still have issues grind 1/16" of the tip of the blade.

Also, when the edge fails quickly like its been doing check to see if its rolling or chipping. If its just chipping a bit its probably just a matter of using a higher angle or grinding a bit off to get past the bit of steel at the tip that might be a little weak. If the edge is rolling (e.g. if there is a burr on the back of the blade after a few strokes) the blade may be too soft.

Even from companies like LN and LV sometimes the steel at the tip of the blade is bit decarbonized and need to behoned/ground past. And every once in a while something gets past the goalie. I don't have a lot LN tools, but in general I have found their A2 top quality.

[David Weaver]

quite some time ago now, I sharpened a couple of A2 irons using charlesworth's method with a shapton 15k as the finish stone, and lie nielsen's iron lasted the longest on a hard maple board. Hard maple is a nice planing wood and planes smoothly. I took 2 thousandth shavings the entire time and adjusted the plane every 25 or 50 strokes if the shavings weren't proper thickness, and waxed the sole so I could get a good feel for how much resistance was due to sharpness and how much was due to the sole of the plane.

Side comment, if you think your smoother is getting dull and the finish is still decent, wax the sole. Often, the planes not dull, just the user.

Anyway, I got 1700 feet out of the lie nielsen iron at the time.

Everything depends on circumstances, but when you use charlesworth's sharpening method, you are setting up an ideal bevel for an A2 iron such that it wears and doesn't chip.

In terms of initial sharpness, if you have a medium that will cut the carbides on A2 and you spend enough time on it, it will get as sharp as anything else. Same for any of the other steels. Submicron diamonds come to mind.

[Patrick Carpenter]

Raise the angle a few degrees. If you still have issues grind 1/16" of the tip of the blade.

Also, when the edge fails quickly like its been doing check to see if its rolling or chipping. If its just chipping a bit its probably just a matter of using a higher angle or grinding a bit off to get past the bit of steel at the tip that might be a little weak. If the edge is rolling (e.g. if there is a burr on the back of the blade after a few strokes) the blade may be too soft.

Even from companies like LN and LV sometimes the steel at the tip of the blade is bit decarbonized and need to behoned/ground past. And every once in a while something gets past the goalie. I don't have a lot LN tools, but in general I have found their A2 top quality.

Yep. It seems like a few people agree that raising the angle a bit should be the first resort. I'm not a real big fan of micro bevels, but I guess that could be an option too.
I'm glad you mentioned chipping vs. rolling at the edge. I have checked out the edge under magnification (60x) and it looks like it's definitely rolling. In fact if I let it get too bad I can feel kind of like a serrated burr. A lot of my other tools are hand-forged Japanese steel which I think is generally quite a bit harder than LN's A2. Maybe it's just something I'll need to get used to.