Throwing away the wheels

[Bruce Mack]

I use the Sellers method on Shapton waterstones 1000-5000-15000. The convexity can be kept subtle. Some rocking is unavoidable, and seems to ensure that the very edge of the blade gets sharpened, something that does not always happen with the freehand side-sharpening approach or requires futzing with a guide. A flat bevel looks nicer but in my hands cuts no better.

[David Weaver]

I know this thread might turn into a battle so I'll stop very soon.

I agree with that. Once most people get some experience, I they will go toward something closer to what is taught at NBSS (quick grind, quick hone - few steps), but until then the idea that a large rounded bevel will be sharper in practice is only true if the flat bevel is not properly made. The sharpest instruments we're likely to use, straight razors, which have to be several orders sharper and smoother than tools to work properly, are hollow ground with a flat bevel.

[Brian Holcombe]

The difference is that a wide secondary bevel will still cut. Lifting the backend of the blade to buff out the edge slowly increases the effective cutting angle.

I moved away from this method because it's difficult to get consistence results. It would start off very well, then eventually get to the point where the edge was sharp but it wouldn't cut in the plane to save it's life.

[Jim Matthews]

Lifting the backend of the blade to buff out the edge slowly increases the effective cutting angle.

Certainly, that's true.
My practicum taught us to grind the entire convex bevel, on each step, to the same point.

The effectively shortens the piece of steel.
My guess is that each time I hone the entire bevel, through all the grits
it shortens the steel by the thickness of the wire edge that's formed.

(Plus the thickness of the aggregate swarf that is particles of steel suspended in oil with the fractured abrasive.)

It's important to stress that doing this by hand isn't dainty.
It requires considerable downward pressure to get a 2" wide blade
ground across the entire width.

It can be a really challenge with broad paring chisels.

I was certainly guilt of increasing the effective angle in my learning days.

I think the advantage of hollow grinding is that it concentrates your
efforts on the cutting edge, where it really matters.

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim, I think we take a similar approach, only difference is that now I work to keep the bevel flat, but just the same I'm working the entire bevel rather than just the front edge.

[bob blakeborough]

I agree with this 100%... The only difference between the SR and the woodworking tool will be the amount of hollow grind and the bevel angle or we would be snapping edges off like crazy!

I agree with that. Once most people get some experience, I they will go toward something closer to what is taught at NBSS (quick grind, quick hone - few steps), but until then the idea that a large rounded bevel will be sharper in practice is only true if the flat bevel is not properly made. The sharpest instruments we're likely to use, straight razors, which have to be several orders sharper and smoother than tools to work properly, are hollow ground with a flat bevel.

[Jim Koepke]

Two of my rules on sharpening:

1) Keep it simple
- if sharpening becomes an esoteric ritual it will distract from actual wood working and you may not want to take the time to sharpen when it is needed.
- if something isn't working having a dozen different things like; micro bevels, convex bevels, back bevels, ruler tricks, etc. will make it more difficult to figure out any problems.

2) If it works it doesn't matter what others say.
- if your work looks good no one really cares how you got your blades sharpened.
- if you are not happy with an edged tools performance, try a different method and reread the first rule.

jtk

[Kim Malmberg]

Two of my rules on sharpening:

1) Keep it simple
- if sharpening becomes an esoteric ritual it will distract from actual wood working and you may not want to take the time to sharpen when it is needed.
- if something isn't working having a dozen different things like; micro bevels, convex bevels, back bevels, ruler tricks, etc. will make it more difficult to figure out any problems.

2) If it works it doesn't matter what others say.
- if your work looks good no one really cares how you got your blades sharpened.
- if you are not happy with an edged tools performance, try a different method and reread the first rule.

jtk

Words of wisdom, Jim. Couldn't agree more.

[Jim Matthews]

Do you keep the entire bevel polished?

I think that's the real reason it works so well for me.
I doubt I get mine any sharper than those using a hollow grind.

[Bruce Mack]

If the bevel gets too steep I switch to side sharpening on the 1000 grit stone and quickly level the belly of the convexity. My set up is 3 stones on an auto floor mat and a squeeze bottle of water. No need to wash the wheels of coarse grit before going to the finer stone, no problems of congruity stone to stone if one is slightly concave, no separate grinding station and eye protection, no hesitation to sharpen whatever needs it at the end of a session. We converts are zealots.

[Winton Applegate]

eventually get to the point where the edge was sharp but it wouldn't cut in the plane to save it's life.

Thank you.
Some times I think I live on another planet than everyone else.

One perversion for another

Well it depends on the mentality
The Sellers crowd likes to take a while to get off; lots and lots of strokes; you know . . . make it last. Don’t get to the climax right away.

David’s crowd they want to get right to the fire works. No wasted motion only a few strokes and oooooooh LA LA !

I think if they could figure out a way to do it they would just hook electrodes to their pleasure center and throw the switch. Instantaneous like.


A couple of thoughts
I have said if over and over before.
In the 30 strokes he uses on the strop alone that Sellers takes I could sharpen a blade on three stones ten stokes each or even a better edge for finishing five stones six strokes each.
If I had to give up the quick wipe (no wash) of the roller to keep the jig then I would go that route rather than “save the time” of wiping the roller by going to free hand sharpening.

Another thing I say over and over. I sharpen stacks of blades. BEING ALL SENSITIVE and in tune with the edge to hand connection is fun for the first couple of blades but after that I just want to chuck’er in the jig and geeter done without all the concentration. Save the hand to edge “connection” for where it counts . . . cutting dovetails . . . precision planing end grain joints . . .

With one additional thought :

Takes too long to put on the eye protection.

Ha, ha . . . yah that’s why I don’t use the power grinder. Just takes toooooo long to put on the eye protection . He, hee, hee, Ha, HA
Then there is the process of REEEEEEMOOOOOVING the eye protection.
The setting aside of the eye protection.
Way toooooo much involved there.

Yah, you got it.
Oh wait . . . I’m lying again.

In closing I will say to you what my Mom always said to me when I had a “new” improved “idea” that I was trying to impress upon her for the "obvious" brilliance of it.
she would say : “Dear if you like it I suppose I can stand it”.

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't have a micro bevel on paring chisels or bevel down plane blades, so I polish the entire bevel. On bench chisels, mortise chisels and bevel up planes I have a micro bevel, so polishing them is easy.

[David Weaver]

David’s crowd they want to get right to the fire works. No wasted motion only a few strokes and oooooooh LA LA !

Yeah, fast. No thinking. I should be able to get the tool I'm sharpening out of the work and sharpened and back into the work before I lose track of what I was doing.

No electrodes for me!

As far as the eye protection thing, in 8 years, I've never worn safety glasses grinding a tool to refresh the edge. I suppose if the wheel broke, some ricocheted pieces could come up into my line of sight, but it would literally be physically impossible for a part of the wheel to come off and fly up into my eye - it would come off in a tangent to the wheel and hit the guard, and the only stuff coming off directly would be bits and pieces around the belt line where the tangent would have open air to shoot toward.

I have had metal in my eye, though, but that was from something completely unrelated. That was a pain in the ding to get taken care of!

Winton - you should make a dispenser for your stack-o-blades.

[george wilson]

I have had a few blue hot chips bounce off my eye glasses from metal lathes. You do NOT want them to weld to your skin!!! But,like David,in years past I never had a problem with a bench grinder. Mine DID have the glass eye shield,mind you!!

I would never advise others to not wear eye protection,though. My polycarbonate eye glasses now provide my eye protection.

[David Weaver]

I would never advise others to not wear eye protection,though.

Neither would I. I'd have trouble finding a hobby grinder who got something in their eye refreshing a hollow, though.

Lots of times, the "danger" of the wheel busting into pieces is brought up about dry grinders, and i'm sure it happens from time to time. The gory accidents that are trumped out (including deaths) are from much larger setups, like commercial or factory grinding setups. I'm sure in the days of cutlers laying over wheels, a burst wheel was a high probability of a fatality, but we're not in that situation.

I don't even have the eye shield on my grinder, but the grinder does have a cast iron guard all the way around such that a tangent drawn from the wheel would be somewhere in my body. I'm just flat out too lazy to put glasses on for that, though I *always* wear them when I'm using something more open and grinding large amounts of metal. The piece of metal I got in my eye was a very round piece of metal off of a fairly low speed belt sander, using the drum on the end - but it was stuck enough that I had to go to the ER to get it out, despite waiting a little bit to see if it would move. It landed right in the middle of my pupil, too....I could SEE it! When the ER doc numbed my eyeball, she said, i can't tell if I got it and I said "I saw it as you were sliding it". Bit blurry that close, but I could still see it.