Paul Sellers

[Simon MacGowen]

You are sounding like we need to start spoon feeding

???

I am not interested in feeding anything other than to say that I see the craft differently in terms of its future or growth. Many magazines including woodworking titles have died and the consumer world today is so different that business visionaries (I don't claim to be one of them) have to think differently.

All the craft courses run by the center where I teach are attended by the old people, even though the fees are low. When I go to a tradeshow and all I see is mostly my peers -- white-haired and with money to spend. The younger audience (under 40s) is far and between; I think show organizers should offer free admission to those under 30 or 25.

Just like the views on Paul Sellers, there won't be consensus on the future of hand tool craft. Yours is as good as mine and I consider our views have been fully expressed.

[Jim Koepke]

Ten years ago, I saw a lot of garage sales with hand tools, now few and most of the hand tools now end up in the few second hand hand tool stores, meaning hand tool users are dying but not power tools. I can find tablesaws, routers, drills etc. all the time in my garage sale tours.

Simon,

You have to get up very early to find hand tools at yard sales. They are usually the first thing to be sold.

My grandson is 12. He is very excited to be able to use my hand tools. His younger brother also shows some interest.

LN is likely expanding their market world wide because of their success, not due to being in dire straights.

Many in the industry do not appeal to me for one reason or another. That doesn't mean I think anyone the fool for taking instruction from them.

My feeling is if it works for a person's particular situation then it is fine.

I sharpen blades in a way that works for me. Some have expressed opinions of my keep it simple approach leaves something to be desired. They tend to forget it works for me.

I like to produce a mortise with a heavy chisel and hard blows from a mallet. Some suggest a bench chisel and tapping with finesse. If it works, what difference does it make to have differing strategies?

I tend to chop the waste from dovetails. Others like to saw it out with a coping saw or a fret saw. There is disagreement on whether a coping saw is better than a fret saw. At the end of the day is there really any significant difference?

Pins first or tails first? It really doesn't matter.

One of my favorite 'how to' woodworking videos is Charles Neil and a 'Five Board Bench.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX4fXbRNqqY

I have no idea how effective he is as an instructor, but he inspired me to make a five board bench and then a six board bench.

There is a lot of information available. Lots more than when my first real woodworking project took me on this path.

I think the hobby and craft is growing. I do not see power tool development from Lee Valley being the death knell you envision.

jtk

[george wilson]

Sorry if I am misreading you,Simon. I do think it is a lack of motor problem if some don't get off their duffs and get going on something. That is a growing problem,I think. We had so much less entertainment years ago. Only a radio. Miles to town,with no way to get there but walk when my step father was gone on the Coast Guard boat.

Now,everyone has so many ways to occupy their minds. Most kids learn to push buttons all the time,it seems. I heard about one teenage girl who gets straight A's,but texts something like 5000 texts a day. It's pathetic. Or,is it just a different sense of values. She'll probably become a big time politician,or worse,president.

Not my idea of what to do,but it takes all types,I suppose.

[Kim Malmberg]

OK. Ninetyone replies later this thread has turned from promising into bad. Don't take me wrong. Several replies have been both insightful and good. But at the end of this day, I will sum this up the following way.

- Paul Sellers was born and started woodworking in the wrong age. Hence he cannot be a good woodworker. He really should have known better.
- Chris Schwarz is just a hobbyist and hence he can be disregarded. What he's done for woodworking through his research isn't important.
- Unless you sharpen in a particular manner you are doomed.
- Without the contributions from SMC we wouldn't have woodworking.

George, I don't know you, but I have in fact seen the videos,. All of them. I've googled you for more. And I respect you very much as a woodworker, instrument maker and very knowledgeable person. But respectfully it doesn't mean I respect all of your views. You are not a journeyman, you are not a beginner and I don't think you know how it can feel to be one. In short, you and I live in different woodworking galaxies. I have absolutely no problems with that. But I will reserve the right to my own opinion.
My point is that different people can teach different people - at different levels. You George can teach me very little - because I know to little to be taught by someone as skilled as you. But I can pick up both this and that from Pauls Sellers. And I'm very happy about being able to do it. And I hope to one day be able to learn from you. But I am not there yet. And I would beg you who have actual skills to respect the fact that we are not equal and therefore we need different kind of advice.

I say - live and let live. I don't sharpen well enough to shave my arms. And I don't care to. It's not an absolute view, but it is something I don't feel the need for. I might change my mind if or when I learn more. What I am saying is that even though you don't like something, then so what. Who cares? I'm not trying to become a violin maker or a furniture maker (no irony intended). I'm just trying to enjoy myself. And Paul Sellers helps me do that. He helps me stay interested in woodworking and he helps me keep buying tools and lumber. What's wrong with that? Why do we always have to turn these discussions into fights about who's right or who's wrong?

[george wilson]

Who's fighting?

[David Weaver]

Kim, if you're going to extrapolate, you should cite the sources for your conclusions.

It's pretty clear that most of the people who think that the whole viral blogger and instructor thing is overdone have said that it's not an information problem, it's, as george put it, a motor problem.

In terms of your #2, I'd agree with that - what chris schwarz does is give beginners information. In terms of the world of woodworking, and what will be seen as important in the history of woodworking, it doesn't move the needle at all. I don't move the needle either, but I sure hope that before I assume room temperature, I can do a few pieces that would at least lean against it a little bit.

Winton might take possession of #3, but nobody else does, and 1 and 4 are extreme extrapolation. I'm sure winton is just bursting at the fact that I use a single stone to sharpen most things - I don't believe your edges don't shave hair, by the way, as they do easily with a single washita stone.

If you like the product that schwarz sells, and that sellers sells, by all means consume it. It's not necessary to develop consensus to determine that you like it or that you'll consume it.

Some of us love the information that george provides more (and you can literally call george to discuss something that is bugging you if you need serious advice), and plainly put, we get turned off when advice targeted at hobbyists is confused as being equal to top level advice, and a mob of followers arrives to drop stink bombs to that effect (which has happened before when folks elsewhere via twitter or other forums have seen something they don't like). Simple as that.

here is an example of what irritates me. Several years ago, the double iron thing re-emerged, and I wrote an article. I got several private messages from people who rudely told me I have no idea what I'm talking about and cited chris schwarz as the reason why. Strangely, I don't remember anyone citing cosman off of the top of my head, though he said the same thing at the time. Chris had no idea what to do with a cap iron on a plane, thus nobody could. A few months later, he wrote a blog post praising the virtues of the cap iron, as he had just learned (no idea where), and I got a PM from someone (not one of the original people who messaged me) giving me some friendly advice that if I wanted to learn how to use a cap iron, I should read Chris's blog or maybe take a course.

Now, Sellers has moved the needle enough with actual work for several decades that if someone would've substituted sellers instead, I probably would've gone to the effort to contact Paul to discuss it. But of all of the amateur bloggers, I really have no interest in hearing their latest pearls of wisdom, the same way I wouldn't seek a 30 handicapper to learn to hit a high draw reliably.

[David Barnett]

Yah. For the computers and IT world, the force is in the Silicon Valley. Where is the one for hand tool woodworking? None in sight yet.

True. If nothing else I wish I had your passion, Simon, even if our visions differ. Perhaps I'm just too jaded in my dotage, or maybe I just think things will work themselves out—market forces, supply & demand. Perhaps we're collectively nearing or past a point of no return. Either way, I'm not so sure I see hand tool woodworking as needing saving, a movement, with leaders and crusaders, but then I am feeling old lately.

"Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?"

[Simon MacGowen]

[QUOTE=David Weaver But of all of the amateur bloggers, I really have no interest in hearing their latest pearls of wisdom, .[/QUOTE]

Agreed...some of these bloggers, without knowing it, are hurting the education of the beginners. At least several students told me they got turned off because of the overflooding of blog posts. My answer? "That is why you are here, learning through hands on stuff and not reading blogs."

If anything, the internet is both good and bad for the craft.

Simon

[Kim Malmberg]

Who's fighting?

George. You just told me I am unaware of your skills. So please, don't tell me you didn't want to point that out. I was not trying to say that unless you have a blog or video diary or even an woodworking class or all of them together, you are not worth the time of day. I wasn't implying that a accomplished instrument maker wouldn't know why he or she dos. Of course they do know. And I will happily admit that I am a bottom feeder in that context. But if we are exchanging views then please let us exchange views without prejudice.

Let me say this. I am a journalist since 25 years. I have done just about everything a journalist can do. I've written stories, taken photographs, designed pages, decided what story goes where, worked with editorial IT, been a consultant and trainer of editorial systems and workflows. I've trained people from Africa to Europe, from Kenya to Ireland, the UK and the north of Finland. I am not a native English speaker, so whenever I trained people outside my country I needed more than just managing the language. I had to learn the culture and adopt my training accordingly. Furthermore I've been forced to adopt my training to those who knows the least, because a journalist who cannot file a story is a journalist wasting her or his wages. So I do know something about how to preach the gospel depending on the audience. And I have learned that different audiences require different techniques. And I am able to see that various authorities are capable of reaching various audiences. Which is fine. What I dislike is the notion that everyone should work at the same level, because the more skilled ones thinks their level is the right level for everyone.

Candidly: I have nothing else than the utmost admiration for those of you who know more than I do. And I want to emphasize this. I am not a person seeking conflict. but I do want the skilled ones to recognize that there are a good few of uses who knows bugger all and who cares dearly about the few teachers who are dedicated to teaching us.

[Kim Malmberg]

Now, Sellers has moved the needle enough with actual work for several decades that if someone would've substituted sellers instead, I probably would've gone to the effort to contact Paul to discuss it. But of all of the amateur bloggers, I really have no interest in hearing their latest pearls of wisdom, the same way I wouldn't seek a 30 handicapper to learn to hit a high draw reliably.

David, I'm accomplished enough to tell you how to hit a high draw or stinger, cut or low fade. But I have a feeling you would want someone more accomplished to tell you, because I'm a no name and not a real golf coach. And I take no offense, simply because I am just that.

Still, why is it so hard to accept that different people do different things for different people? I wouldn't trust you to be my coach on the golf course either. But would that stop you from trying to hit all of those shots or even refrain from those shots if you had a better game plan yourself.

[steven c newman]

Maybe I am an exception here? I do look in on a few vids, when I get bored. Even dial up a few of norm Abrams' stuff. I came from a family of both mechanics, and House Builder carpenters. One could merely take your car or truck for a short drive, come back and tell EXACTLY what was wrong, and knew how to fix it back up. Another could, and did, build not only his own house, but a few others, too. Maybe i picked up a FEW skills along the way.

Re; Sellers. I have used his "trick" to make simple Raised panels. I modified it somewhat to fit what I was doing. He provided the idea, and I used it, after fitting it to what I use, and build. Watched his bench build....and built something different. Mine fit in the workspace ( VERY SMALL ) a little bit better. Sharpening? I have my own ways, based on what I have to work with. Will a plane of mine shave a hair off a bald head? No. That is not what I need out of my planes. I want to get to that point as fast as the planes will get me there. But, a see-through shaving is worthless until the final pass, anyway.

Picked up a couple plough/rebate planes, and wanted to learn HOW to grip, and use them. Looked up a few vids, took a few notes, compare to see what was repeated in each, and adopted that to the planes I had.

So, instead of going out, and buying a bunch of books, going to a bunch of classes, and such, I do the research as best i can via the internet. With a very LARGE grain of salt, of course. "Lock your arms to hold the iron thusly, and move it across the stone like this.." Hmmm, what IF one can not "lock" thier arms into that pose? Then what? "You are doomed to dullness" Nah, just adapt, adjust, and overcome. Lack of "Good Lumber" ?? Recycle, Reclaim, reuse. One merely has to be flexiable in what they do. Make a living at this? BTDT, got burned out doing it. It will stay a FUN Hobby, enough to keep me out of the local Taverns. So, for Sellers and all others doing the Vid-blog out there, it is just research to me, or when I get bored. Not worth fighting about whose "Gospel" is the correct path. Too many REAL wars out there doing that....

[David Weaver]

David, I'm accomplished enough to tell you how to hit a high draw or stinger, cut or low fade. But I have a feeling you would want someone more accomplished to tell you, because I'm a no name and not a real golf coach. And I take no offense, simply because I am just that.

Still, why is it so hard to accept that different people do different things for different people? I wouldn't trust you to be my coach on the golf course either. But would that stop you from trying to hit all of those shots or even refrain from those shots if you had a better game plan yourself.

Kim, I can already hit all of those, it was just a comment.

Clearly different people do different things for other folks, like I said, if you like sellers and schwarz, then by all means be a consumer.

[John Powers]

Whadya say we put a fork in this Paul Sellers thing. you like him, you hate him. It's getting old as my friends from the south would say.

[Jim Koepke]

But at the end of this day, I will sum this up the following way.

- Paul Sellers was born and started woodworking in the wrong age. Hence he cannot be a good woodworker. He really should have known better.
- Chris Schwarz is just a hobbyist and hence he can be disregarded. What he's done for woodworking through his research isn't important.
- Unless you sharpen in a particular manner you are doomed.
- Without the contributions from SMC we wouldn't have woodworking.

There must be something gained in the translation and then lost again on the way back. The statements above seem to be amplified well beyond any intent I have detected.

Most of what I see amounts to people saying either Paul Sellers is a fantastic resource or others saying he isn't their cup of tea. I would be hard pressed to find much that I have learned from watching Mr. Sellers' videos.

On the other hand a few things were learned from the folksy rambling style of Charles Neil. I could see how some would be driven bonkers listening to his 'Five Board Bench' video. For me it was easy to watch broken up into different times while I was eating a meal.

Chris Schwarz is a professional/writer/researcher/teacher in the field of woodworking. His style may upset others, but that kind of stuff happens. I read him on a regular basis as I find little bits of information that are new to me even if they were old to my grandfather. His evangelistic nature toward the craft may bother some.

I am not sure what you mean about sharpening. Most here have worked with more than one method and use what works for them or make due with what is on hand.

I have learned many things by reading the posts on SMC. I do not know of anyone who thinks the past, present or future of woodworking depends on SMC.

My hope is the SMC business plan is structured in such a way to allow its survival for another century or two. I hope my heirs can visit these pages and learn about the hobby.

jtk

[ian maybury]

It's fairly clear that Paul S certainly gets our attention anyway - which with his output perhaps explains the high profile he has generated.

For what it's worth it seems that the differences in perception arise not so much out of the substance of what he teaches (and he's pretty clearly a very experienced pair of woodworking hands - i enjoy and have learned from his videos) as his woodworking and teaching style.

He has i think a slightly flippant and minimalist way of presenting and doing - which may make stuff seem easy and inconsequential. Which plays well to some, and puts others off.

I guess as before though that regardless of how it's presented that the content of a given woodworking task is largely what it is - and there's not much that's new, and no escape from practical realities. The factor that makes the difference between our making very heavy weather of it, or its seeming quick and easy comes down to our putting in the time needed to refine the technique, and getting enough practice so that it becomes second nature. With mindset in the mix too. Learning to work with speed and economy is a key part of the game - but as everything else this tends to be fairly hard won.

It seems unlikely that the methods taught by anybody can be a substitute for this grunt work - no matter how easy they make it seem on video. The realisation that a style like Paul's can trigger however is that we don't have to sweat it - that we can afford to lighten up.

It brings to mind a quote in a marketing e-mail from David Savage in the UK last week regarding time spent early in his career with Alan Peters - which is around the same point, and which shows that we're not the only ones that struggle to find balance on the matter: 'I could say that Alan was patient and kind which he was especially with someone he felt was worth the effort. But to be honest he could be abrasive and short tempered. He had little time for incompetence and more than once told me "to stop faffing about, cut it once then leave it'