Hrm, so Schwarz doesn't like us? Got a cold reception here?
Why would that be? The same reason someone (I think it was Weaver) tore Cosman a new one because he was basically just hocking Woodriver and talking out his butt?
Contributor
Hrm, so Schwarz doesn't like us? Got a cold reception here?
Why would that be? The same reason someone (I think it was Weaver) tore Cosman a new one because he was basically just hocking Woodriver and talking out his butt?
The Barefoot Woodworker.
Fueled by leather, chrome, and thunder.
Guest
I think the last time I caused a stink was when the blades were described as doing something other ones don't, and getting a little anal retentive about just how much wear an unhardened cap iron takes on. There was also some sly discussion of one iron lasting longer than another, etc, and in my experience (including counting strokes) there is almost no difference between non-defective A2 irons - everyone brings them up to about the same hardness. I do have a defective one - shepherd - it's the only defective A2 iron I've ever had.
That was quite some time ago, though.
I don't have any problem with Rob, though. He's making a living and he's forthright about what he's selling and who is paying him. I get engrossed in details a lot and argue points, and sometimes it makes it out like I don't like people, and there's people I'm indifferent about but few that I would say "I don't like that person".
And I'll argue points with people I like. Some people just don't give you much to argue about (like warren, george, etc). I used to argue with warren about cap irons and stock stanley irons and now I'm using cap irons and stock stanley irons, so you see how that turned out (and a wooden try plane).
If some bloggers don't like us, though, that seems like it's their problem and not ours. If some practicing professional woodworkers were stopping by and saying "you guys are completely wrong", then they'd have my attention.
Last edited by David Weaver; 08-18-2014 at 2:06 PM.
Member
I think some people on this thread have been drinking to much Sawmill Creek Kool-Aid.......
The reason why a lot of woodworking personalities avoid the Creek, is that it seems to have a disproportionate amount of members just looking to argue. One more than one occasion I have seen someone ask a question and the thread goes off on a random tangent because two or more members just want to argue who is the better woodworker. Half the time the original question doesn't even get answered.
Last edited by dan sherman; 08-18-2014 at 2:23 PM.
-Dan
Member
Please define "professional woodworker", Last time I checked pretty much everyone that has been griped about gets paid for woodworking.Originally Posted by David Weaver
-Dan
Contributor
Chris Schwarz is a professional writer, editor, publisher and teacher. He does not earn an significant part of his income as a woodworker. Sellers, once earned a living as a professional woodworker but now is predominantly a teacher and writer (books, blog).
David Marks, by contrast, once had a popular TV show, teaches and has done a little writing but he is a professional woodworker. Garrett Hack, is another example of a professional woodworker who writes and teaches.
These two groups might appear similar on the surface, but they are vastly different.
-- Dan Rode
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
Guest
Someone who derives their income from the pieces that they make, design, restore, etc.
I shouldn't even need to say anything about george, but lest someone says "he made his salary from a museum", he's done some of his most demanding work on the side from paying customers instead of setting up classes, and his ability to design and execute is completely unquestionable.
And Warren works entirely with hand tools and makes a living doing, if I'm not mistaken, woodworking and historically accurate restoration with hand tools. Warren also has insight on design and execution that is far beyond bloggers "buy premium tools" advice.
Warren and George will offer advice and criticism for free, and all of the "new discoveries" being brought up by bloggers are things both have read, digested and applied in context long ago. (and I have never seen them discourage anyone from woodworking, despite the fact that they don't get anything in return).
Last edited by David Weaver; 08-18-2014 at 2:30 PM.
Member
So let me get this right, if I do woodworking all day, and get payed because I woodwork all day, but I'm not getting payed by selling what i make then I'm not a Pro?
If so, that seems like a pretty narrow & elitist point of view. Does a person need to be in a biker gang to be a biker?
-Dan
Guest
If what you're getting toward is that being a professional editor or writer or publisher and doing a lot of woodworking is not the same thing as being a professional woodworker or craftsman (especially in the warren, george, randall, peter ross, etc, kind of way), that's correct. I wouldn't go to a professional woodworker for publishing advice, either. I'm not sure why it's important to categorize my views, but you can do it if you'd like, just as you can seek advice wherever you'd like to seek it.
Generally in anything, I will seek people who are formally trained and who have a proven track history, and go down the ladder only if no such thing is available. That's not the case here.
Contributor
The Tool Chest #2 I am building came from a few of Sellers ideas. Raise a panel using a handplane. And from the Schwarz That Tool Chest he built, not the Dutch one, the other one. The feet on mine came from a Norm Abrams idea on a Blanket chest.
I use each Person's ideas as a research project, then adapt to what I need to do my own builds.
Contributor
Perhaps a dictionary might help?
"Professional" does not indicate the quality of the work. It's indicates that one's primary income is generated by this activity.
I'm not aware of any biker that earns a living riding a motorcycle or any bike gang that pays a salary (and I know a lot of bikers). I will happily change professions as soon as they offer a salary.
-- Dan Rode
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
Moderator
I don't know why such a heirarchy or dichotomy is relevant. As a rabid woodworking consumer and eager student, I get a lot out of all of it, from Garrett Hack's pictures to Chris Schwarz's articles to Paul Seller's videos to George Wilson and Zack Dillinger's no-nonsense personal advice.
If any of the above were wrong, or mean-spirited, I might have issue with it. But it's all almost always legitimate and helpful. I'm grateful there are all types out there; I'm happy learning from them all, pedigreed or rubber stamped, or pigeon-holed, or black listed.
Last edited by Prashun Patel; 08-18-2014 at 3:10 PM.
Contributor
This isn't good versus bad. They have different focuses, that's all.
For example, a professional cabinet maker is going to be busy making cabinets and casework all day. He's not very likely to spend much time making a video of how to cut a dado or choose a saw for a newbie hobby woodworker like me.
CS, Sellers, Cosman, are professional teachers and/or writers, so they may well produce a video that helps me learn something.
-- Dan Rode
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
Member
The reason I categorized is as I did, is I think that's a flawed point of view. It's premise seems to be that if your not a pro, then your point of view and experience is insignificant. If you look back through history You will find a lot of non pros that made pros look like buffoons. Just because someone is a pro, doesn't mean they are always right or better than someone that is not.
Perhaps I'm just different as I wasn't trained through a trade that has a classist hierarchy.
-Dan
Member
I have known a few pretty atrocious "professional" craftsmen!! As mentioned,being pro does not guarantee good quality work.
Cool down,Dan. The terms you are throwing around,like "elitist" and "Hierarchy" and "classist" sound pretty angry.
Last edited by george wilson; 08-18-2014 at 3:19 PM.
Guest
Some people like to be taught that kind of stuff, but there are also some (me included) where it's easier to figure that out based on the tools you have around, and then look for direction if you're having problems. The professional knows that what you're lacking is experience, and that you'll find a method and then speed to go with it from experience and repetition. It's like the sharpening thing. I get anal retentive about sharpening fast because I've gotten past the point where I have patience for any other way. I think most people will get there. Hopefully everyone gets the urge to start sharpening everything they can get their hands on because it's a skill that goes outside the workshop (to kitchen knives, garden tools, scissors, and maybe shaving). We don't need to talk details (though we often do) if you're getting results and getting them quickly.
There's a local class here that's on sharpening...it's *all day*. I can't imagine it. I remember the first thing I watched to learn to sharpen was charlesworth's DVD - 45 minutes or something. It worked right away. Done. Next item of concern.
A lot of what we used to have to get on DVDs or out of magazines is freely available, now, too. I think LN has a video with ..can't remember the guy's name, but #2 at LN...showing the basic sharpening method.
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