Paul Sellers

[Steve Voigt]

… if a leader is liked (not the same as respected) by all his or her followers, he or she is not the best leader...may not even be a good leader at all.

…We want people like them to lead the current and new generations of hand tool woodworkers, to get them excited about the craft, to understand and learn how they can work wood using techniques Paul or Chris "preaches" as the only right way or as one of the ways and so on. They have their share of conviction and it shows through their personal approaches and styles.

I was going to sit this one out, but you drove me off the bench.

Who on earth is this "we" that wants to be "led"? I'm not looking for a leader, nor do I want to be a follower, still less would I want to be a leader. I want to be inspired by great artists, but I want to do as they do, not sit worshipfully at their feet. And that's to do with design, with creation of aesthetic objects. What Sellers teaches is the techniques of woodworking, and those are anonymous. They are centuries old, and they belong To. No. One. They simply exist, and they are there for the learning by anyone with the drive and determination to do so, no gurus needed.

[David Weaver]

Next up will be how the paleo diet is different (and of course better) than eating the foods on the paleo diet without calling it the paleo diet.

(r), TM, C, All rights reserved, patented

[Simon MacGowen]

"The requirement as ever is to put in enough practice and figuring out time to gain an understanding of what's truly going on."

This statement, while true (and is also true for anything that requires learning and training), has its problem: #1 practice makes sense ONLY if it is the correct practice; #2 gaining understanding is not something everyone can do it naturally.

I have seen numerous woodworkers sawing badly...because they don't know how to practice correctly to start with such as holding the saw handle too tightly.

Chopping a mortise by hand looks simple and is indeed simple for those who have acquired the skills and practice, but to tell a newbie to practice and to gain an understanding without the help of a good teacher or good vids, etc. is to guarantee failure (well in 99% of the time). Failure, in turn, turns people away from acquiring the mortising skill.

I have taught students of different backgrounds (some reasonably good in hand tools, some newbies, some classes of mixed skills) and I know how effective Paul is, just from watching his free videos. OK, let's call them hooks, but hooks or not, they are effective training or learning materials. Compare his to many other vids offered free on other online school sites or youtube or other bloggers, it is day and night in quality and effectiveness as a learning tool.

One doesn't have to a fan of Paul, a subscriber of his Masterclasses, or an owner of his DVDs or books to see the difference. Just be an open-minded woodworker. I like Frank Klausz's materials, G. Blackburn's, Rob Cosman's, Ian Kirby's, etc. Every author, known or little known, contributes something positive, it's just how you look at the glass -- half full or half empty.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

"What sellers teaches is easy to find..."

Easy to find is not the same thing as how easy to learn. Otherwise, those who subscribe to Paul's classes must be all fools, throwing money at Paul for no good reasons. Why don't they throw their money at somebody else?

To you, there may be nothing new under the sun. I see new ways of learning and teaching as a result of the convictions of people like Paul Sellers and Chris Schwarz. They may be teaching the old stuff, but unlike people before them who also know the old stuff, they manage to excite people. Chris is not even a master craftsman but he does more to promote the hand tool craft in the 21st c than anyone else. Paul has done the same thing in the last 5 to 10 years. Of course, we have Rob Cosman, Frank Klausz, Roy Underhill, etc. who have helped educate woodworkers. But in terms of moving the mass, we can't discount the influence of Paul Sellers. Look at how many people follow him on the Facebook and how many hits his Youtube vids get, and the crowd he drew when he did the (not really hand-tool) woodshows in the US last year.

Simon

[george wilson]

People like Simon do not know what I have done since I do not do videos or blogs,or do articles in magazines. I have reasons to not participate that I should not mention here.

I taught shop for 6 years before coming to Williamsburg in 1970. By about 1967 I was already getting into making early instruments like lutes and had made a harpsichord. I started making guitars in 1954.

I taught every day in the shop,where we had sometimes 3000 people a day. My film is essentially a teaching film about making a spinet and a violin. You can watch it on you tube in 6 installments now.

I trained about 22 people during my 16 years in public. One is working in the Smithsonian,another is a conservator in another museum. You have seen Marcus Hansen and Ed Wright perform exacting sawing skills,inlay and veneer work on Roy Underhill's show. Another is a very accomplished violin maker. Another was running the neck making department at Taylor Guitars last thing I heard. All became competent instrument makers,but,due to the difficulty of trying to make a living at it,not all are doing it for a living. Nor are anyone else's students. Most of those are hobby woodworkers.

Before you judge me,Simon,I think you should Google George Wilson harpsichord and see the film on you tube. You do not know me,clearly. Neither does Kim.

Some of you only recognize those who do videos,blogs,or write articles. That is understandable,but those are not the end all and be all. There are others of us out there. And plenty of very talented craftsmen no one ever heard of.

[Simon MacGowen]

People like Simon do not know what I have done since I do not do videos or blogs.

I taught shop for 6 years before coming to Williamsburg in 1970. By about 1967 I was already getting into making early instruments like lutes and had made a harpsichord.

I taught every day in the shop,where we had sometimes 3000 people a day. My film is essentially a teaching film about making a spinet and a violin. You can watch it on you tube in 6 installments now.

I trained about 22 people during my 16 years in public. One is working in the Smithsonian,another is a conservator in another museum. You have seen Marcus Hansen and Ed Wright perform exacting sawing skills,inlay and veneer work on Roy Underhill's show. Another is a very accomplished violin maker. Another was running the neck making department at Taylor Guitars last thing I heard. All became competent instrument makers,but,due to the difficulty of trying to make a living at it,not all are doing it for a living.

Before you judge me,Simon,I think you should Google George Wilson harpsichord and see the film on you tube. You do not know me,clearly. Neither does Kim.

It is natural that I and many others do not know you, but we are not judging you at all -- good or bad. We are simply sharing our views about Paul Sellers whom tens of thousands know about, because his marketing approach is different from yours. The same why so many people know who Elton John is vs a classical music performer; not that one is better. Your name was brought up as a better means of learning vs Paul Sellers and my only response was I couldn't tell. No judgment there.

However, to put down Paul's effort as gimmicks and hooks for personal gains is totally uncalled for.

Simon

[David Barnett]

"We want people like them to lead the current and new generations of hand tool woodworkers..."

Who on earth is this "we" that wants to be "led"?

Why am I seeing flashes of deco posters with brave craftsmen, chisels in hands, marching ever forward to build rugged furniture for the masses?

Woodworkers of the World Unite!

Struck me funny, too.

[Steve Voigt]

Why am I seeing flashes of deco posters with bold woodworkers, tools in hands, marching forward to build rugged furniture for the masses?

Struck me oddly, too.

I think this guy just finished a 5-day intensive course:

Attachment 294073

[Simon MacGowen]

You and I are not looking at the craft in the same dimension. Hand tool craft is dying for many reasons (e.g. the school system) and the lack of leadership is one of them. I am not a tool maker and I teach for fun and so financially, it doesn't bother me if hand tool woodworking dies. But anyone who loves the art of woodworking would want the art to continue and here I think we lack leadership. Not that I want you or anyone to be led, but that the art needs good and strong leaders to move it and sustain it. Paul or Chris alone couldn't do it, we need the whole community, not just the passive or quiet teachers in the background, but a force. We need the tool makers and suppliers, big or small, to promote the art (or trade or craft, whatever you call it). We need the publishers, the good writers, the wood shows, the forums, the blogs (good ones, though), etc. to excite the new learners.

That is where leaders and leadership come to the picture and that's what my previous comment was about.

Simon

[george wilson]

First of all,I have no marketing strategy. I am retired. You have only 75 posts here,so I doubt you have even seen any of my work. And,I don't know what happened to the former FAQ section,where much good work and instruction once was kept.

Secondly,I have said nothing about gimmicks or whatever other words you have mentioned. I have said nothing about Mr. Sellers,one way or the other. I don't watch his videos,or most others,for that matter.

I don't think you have accused me of doing that. I just want it to be clear.

It's just never been my style to write articles or books,or to turn every project I made into an illustrated article,and eventually into a book. But,I have met some who do exactly that. And,it has been surprising how ignorant of things some of them really are,when they get out of their narrow area of expertise. I had one major author of musical instrument making books ask me:"You don't believe in this business of tuning violin tops and backs,do you?" I was astounded. I explained exactly why I DID,and what effect doing it had upon the instrument (elimination of "wolf" notes). Another well known author came to a forum,where he was such an arrogant a$$,he really got every craftsman in Williamsburg thoroughly fed up with him. This was one of those types who makes an article out of every simple end table he makes. His stock in trade is being an excellent photographer. He told me he had been using the same set of planer blades for 20 years!! Sorry,you have to USE them to wear them out!!

I do not think hand tool work is dying out. If it were,companies like LV and LN would not be here,nor would Woodcraft Supply,and the several small saw makers and plane makers,or my friend Chris Vesper,etc.. I think it is GROWING.

Just in the area of guitar making; When I was young,there were NO books at all about it,NO suppliers of frets,tuners,pickups,etc.. Darned difficult to find out how to do anything. The first book I ever saw was 1/8" thick,and not a good one. Now,there are books every where,and plenty of suppliers. This is illustrative of the growth of just one special branch of woodworking. I started in 1954,and saw my first guitar book in about 1959.

[Brian Holcombe]

If you've tried the Egyptian chair or model 45 chair I'll relent, but if you haven't, I would encourage you to. Niels Otto Moller's chairs brought me to Danish but it's Finn Juhl and Wegner that have really kept my attention.







I enjoy the metal work of the bauhaus as well, really well executed detailing without being the least bit ornate, both furniture and building facade. I can appreciate heavily ornate, but it really doesn't keep my attention. The ornate ironwork of louis sullivan is really something, he did straddle the line very well. The major works of the Bauhaus have been copied so often they have become commonplace, but the original works are still something incredible to behold.

Haha, Dunhill is one of those companies, I've made my own humidors and would still buy one of theirs in a heartbeat if the right opportunity came along.

[David Barnett]

Paul or Chris alone couldn't do it, we need the whole community, not just the passive or quiet teachers in the background, but a force. We need the tool makers and suppliers, big or small, to promote the art (or trade or craft, whatever you call it). We need the publishers, the good writers, the wood shows, the forums, the blogs (good ones, though), etc. to excite the new learners.

Wow! Just... wow!

[Simon MacGowen]

Sorry. I didn't mean that you accuse of Paul of gimmicks or hooks. Those are David's words where your name was brought up. That sentence gives the context to my earlier comment.

Of course, you may be right to think the craft is growing, and if so, Paul and Chris would be happy to hear that. I see it differently because none of the kids I know are interested either in woodworking or furniture, except the Ikea stuff. Most people I teach are in their 40s, 50s and (surprise) 60s. Teenagers, the future consumers of LN and LV, almost none. I won't say this may not change, but given the IT influence that is going to be stronger and not weaker, I am not optimistic.

Ten years ago, I saw a lot of garage sales with hand tools, now few and most of the hand tools now end up in the few second hand hand tool stores, meaning hand tool users are dying but not power tools. I can find tablesaws, routers, drills etc. all the time in my garage sale tours.

I must admit I am half glass empty about the future of the hand tool craft. The economy forces people to be efficient or learn to be so. It is hand-tool only businesses that should worry about their future. Small or one-man players (Bridge City, for example) have their own small followers, but for LN and LV, the math is different. LN is expanding to China for a reason and it wouldn't need to do so if the local market is growing. LV has expanded its line to include premium power tools which is sound business strategy because how many people use hand tools alone?

I hope you are right about the status of growth, but it wouldn't hurt if someone takes the initiative to lead the growth further....

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Yah. For the computers and IT world, the force is in the Silicon Valley. Where is the one for hand tool woodworking? None in sight yet.

[george wilson]

Gee whiz,Simon! What do you think THIS FORUM is ? and the other fora?And the dozens of books out there?

I will sound like an old fuddy duddy,I'm sure,but if I had had access to this forum,or the scads of other things that young people have these days,I'd have thought I'd died and gone to Heaven!!!!

You are sounding like we need to start spoon feeding people into getting involved in woodworking. I SAY THEY NEED THEIR OWN MOTOR!! I certainly grew up in a vacuum. No money,no support from my parents,who thought my aspirations were foolishness,or just ignored what I was doing. My step father was so old fashioned,he thought children should eat at "second table". To him,kids were worthless and in the way,except to serve him as his mules.

I don't know if I was better off getting my craftsman's education the hard way. Maybe I was.

Anyway,the word is MOTOR. Most do not seem to have one. I don't know what David Barnett thinks,but I'd bet he agrees. I know David Weaver does.

LV is constantly putting big money into developing new hand tools. LN is adding to their line. Of course,it is always good to expand into other lines. I see nothing sinister about LV starting to sell power tools. They sell garden tools,too. And other things.