Woodworking for a living?

[Ellen Benkin]

When people ask me if I make items for sale my response is that it wouldn't be fun for me if it was a job. If I do make something for a friend, I charge for the materials and my labor is free. People are often shocked at the cost of wood anyway. Another part of the deal is that it takes as long as it takes and I won't work on a deadline. I'm retired and my time is my own. If I want to work in the shop, I do that. If I want to go to a movie, I do that.

[Loren Woirhaye]

The above comment raises another issue.

If you want people to pay good money for your work, one way to get it into a class by itself is to make it so good a prospective buyer cannot realistically ask a friend or a relative to make it for less. Put technical challenges in there hobby woodworkers will not want to take on. Cutting board and craft sellers complain about people taking cell-phone pictures and saying "I'll have my dad make that for me". Dad may also be uninterested in taking on the logistics and lifting of doing a substantial cabinet job, but again, there's always guys out there willing to do those jobs pretty darn cheap... skimping on quality or refinement in some ways generally.

[Peter Quinn]

I work under a company umbrella in a small well established cabinetry and millwork shop. I briefly set about to do the solo shop routine but retreated to employee status when the economy went south. My kids need to eat more than I need to dream about being my own boss or building any monuments to my craftsmanship. Dealing with even upper middle class income clients can challenging, the videos Johnny posted are so true it hurts me to laugh at them. Can't recall how many times I've had that reality check conversation. I'm frank verging on rude at this point. Forget what you think you want. How much will you have to spend. Want cabinets from crate and barrel....to buy them there. Want an ikea kitchen, go get one. I make it clear to anyone foolish enough to believe otherwise that my services will cost them at least 2X-3x the next best price from a stock option, don't want to belabor any misunderstandings about costs. And the attitude that cabinet makers are dirty shlubs while architects and designers are professional to be well paid and respected....been there too. Some architects are great, others not so much, have seen too many half baked designs from designers and architects to not be skeptical. We are wood professionals, your average architect knows more about French drainage systems and roof loads than cabinetry, why they try to pretend otherwise is beyond me. But we often work for them and they can have big egos, so tread lightly. Want to do this for a living, loose any illusions first of romantic notions.

[Brian Holcombe]

I work under a company umbrella in a small well established cabinetry and millwork shop. I briefly set about to do the solo shop routine but retreated to employee status when the economy went south. My kids need to eat more than I need to dream about being my own boss or building any monuments to my craftsmanship. Dealing with even upper middle class income clients can challenging, the videos Johnny posted are so true it hurts me to laugh at them. Can't recall how many times I've had that reality check conversation. I'm frank verging on rude at this point. Forget what you think you want. How much will you have to spend. Want cabinets from crate and barrel....to buy them there. Want an ikea kitchen, go get one. I make it clear to anyone foolish enough to believe otherwise that my services will cost them at least 2X-3x the next best price from a stock option, don't want to belabor any misunderstandings about costs. And the attitude that cabinet makers are dirty shlubs while architects and designers are professional to be well paid and respected....been there too. Some architects are great, others not so much, have seen too many half baked designs from designers and architects to not be skeptical. We are wood professionals, your average architect knows more about French drainage systems and roof loads than cabinetry, why they try to pretend otherwise is beyond me. But we often work for them and they can have big egos, so tread lightly. Want to do this for a living, loose any illusions first of romantic notions.

I think people often forget that. For instance, architect Le Corbusier hired Joseph Savina to collaborate with on projects. Savina had won the Meilleurs Ouvriers de France.

[Andrew Joiner]

I was a pro for 25 years. I loved public school shop classes as kid. I attended a vocational school cabinetmaking class but dropped out when I got a job in large woodworking shop. I learned a little in schools and more working for other shops. I learned the most when I had my own shop. The biggest lesson was build what is in demand,fast. Deliver the quality promised. Building to the quality promised is often not the best quality in my opinion,but getting paid comes first.
I was able to make a good living by doing all kinds of low class work. Tons of particle board store fixtures covered with plastic laminate left my shop. I loved getting paid well for low prestige jobs. Sometimes I'd get a job that was fine furniture but per hour it was often less profitable.

I had learned many tricks to keep customers happy. Often I would quote 2 prices. Production grade (to match mass produced ) and furniture quality grade. 90% of residential consumers chose production grade after looking at samples. 50% of my office furniture consumers went with furniture grade and paid the up-charge. Ultimately I chose to market mostly to the office furniture trade.

I agree passion for the craft is important. Passion for a profit is WAY more important if you want to keep a business going.

[Mark Bolton]

I was a pro for 25 years. I loved public school shop classes as kid. I attended a vocational school cabinetmaking class but dropped out when I got a job in large woodworking shop. I learned a little in schools and more working for other shops. I learned the most when I had my own shop. The biggest lesson was build what is in demand,fast. Deliver the quality promised. Building to the quality promised is often not the best quality in my opinion,but getting paid comes first.
I was able to make a good living by doing all kinds of low class work. Tons of particle board store fixtures covered with plastic laminate left my shop. I loved getting paid well for low prestige jobs. Sometimes I'd get a job that was fine furniture but per hour it was often less profitable.

I had learned many tricks to keep customers happy. Often I would quote 2 prices. Production grade (to match mass produced ) and furniture quality grade. 90% of residential consumers chose production grade after looking at samples. 50% of my office furniture consumers went with furniture grade and paid the up-charge. Ultimately I chose to market mostly to the office furniture trade.

I agree passion for the craft is important. Passion for a profit is WAY more important if you want to keep a business going.

Andrew, do you think the reason why most of the office furniture clients went with the up charge is because it wasn't their money? (Assuming)

It seems to me that when others are spending against a company budget or even if its their own project but the money is financed, they will go with the upgrade.

The "after seeing samples" part makes me think your production grade met or exceeded most available options with the retail market.

[Michael Yadfar]

I was a pro for 25 years. I loved public school shop classes as kid. I attended a vocational school cabinetmaking class

Same here, I loved shop class, and took it all four years of high school. I started taking it seriously sophomore year, and was easily the top in the class junior and senior year. We learned all about everything from fine woodworking (jointery, finishing, etc) to residential construction. The teacher liked me and highly suggested a woodworking program at a vocational school when I said I have interest in the field. I considered it , but ultimately made the decision to attend a horticultural program and keep woodworking a hobby...

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew, do you think the reason why most of the office furniture clients went with the up charge is because it wasn't their money? (Assuming)

It seems to me that when others are spending against a company budget or even if its their own project but the money is financed, they will go with the upgrade.

The "after seeing samples" part makes me think your production grade met or exceeded most available options with the retail market.

Mark, Maybe partly because it wasn't their own money. I think the big reason was that production office furniture was expensive and had long wait times. We could often beat the price and delivery times.
Yes, my production grade met or exceeded most available options in the retail market, but to be honest many consumers look at price first and details second. Another good thing about giving the customer 2 choices is many complaints could be handled by saying"remember, you didn't choose furniture quality".

[Michael Yadfar]

I feel another benefit of your two price deal is people may feel like they're getting a "deal" with the cheaper price, even though your profit margin is probably the same

[Larry Edgerton]

I work under a company umbrella in a small well established cabinetry and millwork shop. I briefly set about to do the solo shop routine but retreated to employee status when the economy went south. My kids need to eat more than I need to dream about being my own boss or building any monuments to my craftsmanship. Dealing with even upper middle class income clients can challenging, the videos Johnny posted are so true it hurts me to laugh at them. Can't recall how many times I've had that reality check conversation. I'm frank verging on rude at this point. Forget what you think you want. How much will you have to spend. Want cabinets from crate and barrel....to buy them there. Want an ikea kitchen, go get one. I make it clear to anyone foolish enough to believe otherwise that my services will cost them at least 2X-3x the next best price from a stock option, don't want to belabor any misunderstandings about costs. And the attitude that cabinet makers are dirty shlubs while architects and designers are professional to be well paid and respected....been there too. Some architects are great, others not so much, have seen too many half baked designs from designers and architects to not be skeptical. We are wood professionals, your average architect knows more about French drainage systems and roof loads than cabinetry, why they try to pretend otherwise is beyond me. But we often work for them and they can have big egos, so tread lightly. Want to do this for a living, loose any illusions first of romantic notions.

What he said......

I have had my own business for many years, tried to go just shop work, went back to building houses because, well, I like to eat. When times were better about 50% of the work was stuff I wanted to do. Now that the economy here in Michigan [rural] is is the tank, still, about 5% of the work I do is something I want to do, and those jobs I generally do too cheap just so I can do something that is challenging.

Today, I was sanding a drywall ceiling. So much for the grand illusion.........

Larry

[Ryan Mooney]

I think the big reason was that production office furniture was expensive and had long wait times.

Still is and does. I've recently seen simple cubicles run close to $10k or more (price out stuff from steel case if you want heart palpitations). The main problem is that you're usually fighting against a "company standard' for companies of any size and smaller companies often end up buying used (the prize curve on used is a lot better). That still leaves lots of room for executive desks and conference or boardroom tables and similar things to that (and out of the cube farm into the "professional' office area you have folks who will pay well to make an impression on clients).

[James Baker SD]

All through my career I was a hobbyist woodworker and made some pretty good stuff and gradually acquired a pretty nice garage shop. Then the layoff came and I thought "who needs this, I will become a pro woodworker". Two things I learned quickly.
1. middle class customers are cheap. I cannot count the number of times when offering a price estimate on a piece that I heard, "its basically only a box, how hard can that be to make?"
2. to get the clients with deep pockets, skill alone doesn't do it. You need connections and a reputation and I was old enough that there was not time to acquire both.
After two years I ended up accepting an offer to return to my old field. It paid the bills and I enjoyed my hobby woodworking again, making high quality stuff for our house with no compromises. I also came away with a great deal of respect for those guys who do make a successful career in woodworking. They are doing something I failed at.

James

[Dominique Meuris]

To be honest it isn't simple to do woodworking for a living.
And in my opinion there are only 2 way's to succeed.

1 is by having a shop with high end furniture and cabinets. This is what we are doing in Belgium. we offer top of the line furniture made custom to the wishes of the customer.
The only problem with this is when you are runing a factory, it's taking a longer timer and a lot more effort + money then when you are making serie furniture.
We also often have customer's who go elsewhere because they think we are to expensive, but the thing it most of the people are willing to pay a like 10-15% more then for a seriepiece because they can notice the quality difference. Also the reason why we can offer it only 10-15% more expensive, is because we produce it ourself.
other shops have to buy it from a wholesaler, this wholesaler is buying it from a factory. so there are more people turning a profit on it.
The only big problem is that producing of it, it takes a shitload of money. because you have to preinvest in timber and other materials, ...

Another way to succeed in woodworking is to start a small carpenter bussiness, and offer custom made kitchens, build-in wardrobes, ... to customers.
mostly the big company's only work with standard sizes, and this is why there still is an open market for this.
Also dare to be different then other company's, offer them different materials. but al the time try to keep the price as low as possible.

offering 2 prices like Andrew is saying is a good idea, offer the customer's a price like standard cabinetry is doing it. and offer a price with a higher quality.
my experience tell's me that if the difference isn't to big, customer's are often leaning to the more expensive option.

[Michael Yadfar]

Living near Lancaster county, what people here like is "amish made" furniture. I sort of feel like it's a scam though. First of all, if they're truely amish they wouldn't be using power tools, and none of this stuff appears to be made with hand tools. The "Amish made" stuff also typically possesses the quality of regular furniture, I see this stuff built with low quality materials as well. My parents showed me their new "amish made" coffee table, and I said that their table top is plywood with a thin layer of venere on top and one the sides. Then they said "we paid a lot of money for this and the amish made it, so it can't be", I just shaked my head. The shed on my property is "Amish made" and isn't even square, and they cut corners in every spot they could. I think people put an image in their head of the furniture being build with hand saws and hand planes in a barn, while majority of it is likely being built in large modern wood shops to the same standards as everything else. Maybe if I grew a beard and said I was amish I can make a living

[Max Neu]

I have been self employed since 1999,after working for a custom shop for a few years.I can tell you,if you want to make it,it's all about getting good contacts.Try to hook up with designers and quality builders,they will lead you to the people with money.My advise is not to try and contact them until you are ready,make a good presentation,you only get 1 first impression,wait until you have some good samples,pictures of your work,references etc.The 1 thing I have learned over the years when working with designers and customers,is stop thinking like a woodworker,and think like a designer.Designers don't care about hand cut dovetails,mortise and tenons etc.They want the piece to compliment everything else around the piece,they want the proportions right,the finish a certain way,etc. Don't focus on things like "wow,that's a beutiful piece of wood,where should I put it ?",or "these dovetails are super tight and perfectly made".You are wasting time thinking like that,because they don't care,they just want it to look good.I am not saying you should do low quality work,because you won't be able to get into the high end market,but you need to pick your battles.Also,you have to be creative and offer things other guy's in your area are not,even if you don't sell them those unique pieces you come up with,you can still WOW them by showing them what you are capable of.