Why don't you use ceramic stones?

[george wilson]

Maybe I got lucky. My flattening of the White stone took about an hour,using a used diamond stone. It was slightly out of flat,and had a fuzzy spot of ceramic that had to go. I have seen pictures of "sawn" looking ceramic stones by Spyderco(my brand),but haven't encountered one personally. I got mine in the 80's.

But,once you get the white stone flattened,you'll never have to do it again. The black one(really more like a dark brown) was perfect out of the box. Those 2 and a diamond bench stone have been the system I settled on after trying just about everything else out there. I had museum money to do quite a bit of experimenting with.

I tried water stones. They wear,are very messy,and they caused my chisels to get a slight case of brown spots,though I carefully wiped them dry. I hate to buy an expensive stone that will get worn out from use and re flattening.

For several years I used Frictionite razor stones incorrectly,but effectively,with "Lock Oil",a light weight oil that was stocked in the museum's warehouse. Not correct,but it did work just fine. I got razor sharp edges and minimal mess. The projects I have posted here were made with tools sharpened with that stone. Including the curly maple lion's head,with carved hair.

I made a knife out of D2 steel,and could not quite get it razor sharp. I honed and honed. Tried Arkansas,and everything else I could lay hands on. Then I got the Spyderco ceramic stones. Got them prepped up,and easily raised a razor sharp edge. That steel was simply too wear resistant to sharpen on any of the softer stones. There is no steel that a ceramic stone will not cut. Arkansas stones,on the other hand,grind like they were made of wood in my belt grinder. I have reshaped some broken slip stones like that. Not so with the ceramic stones! Nothing short of diamond is going to touch them!!

The only thing I ever have to do is quickly scrub off the gray haze of metal from the white stone. The black one never seems to get dirty. You can clean the gray off with cleansing powder from the kitchen. Or,give it a scrub with the diamond stone.I haven't worn out my diamond stone doing that,though I have read that some guys have. Maybe,like everything else,it's a matter of technique. Diamonds need gentle treatment. They are hard,but terribly brittle,and can be dislodged from their matrix if used with too hard down bearing. We had one in the shop that is still there after decades. It is one of the first ever made,and is a solid block of plastic 1" thick,with the perforated steel matrix on its top. It still cuts. The makers gave it to the museum to try.

I hone any nicks away with the diamond stone,then the black,then the white. I might strop a LITTLE on a piece of MDF with green buffing compound from LV. The MDF does not round over the edge like a leather strop can.

The whole process is quick and easy. I don't have to have a tub of water for my stones to sit in,or any "sharpening station" that takes up space. My cutting fluid is slightly soapy water(detergent,actually). A few drops in a plastic squeeze bottle of water. A little squirt will do. Not even enough to dribble off the edges of the stones. And,not messy enough to rust my tools.

[Jeff Ranck]

Frankly I never thought much about ceramic stones. I don't know anything about them, but I'd sure like to learn the details of what you have there. The Spyderco catalog seems to list "medium" "fine" and "ultra fine" bench stones. Prices are not outrageous. I presume your dark stone is one of the medium ones. What are the other components to your system? Coarse diamond stone? Fine or ultra fine ceramic?

[Daniel Rode]

I plead ignorance. I don't use them because when I was looking to settle on sharpening system, I did not know what they were.

Today I use 1200 & 5k diamond plates and a 15k Shapton.

After listening to you describe the ceramics, I may well have gone that route if I had known more about them.

[David Weaver]

I think the fact that the ceramic stones are a bit variable (they cut fast when they're freshly conditioned and can be made to cut so slowly on the UF that they pretty much stop) probably confuses beginners. Plus, they're not marketed to beginners, and it wasn't until recently that they made the UF in a 3 inch wide stones (for the honing guide users).

Couple that with the fact that most hobby woodworkers don't get past honing planes and chisel irons, and the new ceramics are a lot less messy, and a lot slower wearing than were the kings and such types of stones (the red brick medium stone and then the very soft finishing stone).

IIRC, coors ceramics makes the stones for spyderco, and as you described, when you get one with saw marks in it the only thing that will remotely touch it is a diamond hone. I like them OK - they're like a modern alternative to oilstones (slow wearing, difficult to scuff - downright impossible, actually) - I just wish I would've gotten the 2" wide UF instead of the 3" wide UF.

I like the frictionite, too, though. I wish they would've kept making it. with what's available for razors these days, it would be better for tools than razors given that most new shavers don't understand or have a good grasp of how razor hones were to be used in the past (working just short of the edge instead of to and through it).

As with most of our tools now, the market is driven by beginners, and something like a shapton or sigma power is a little easier to use than the spydercos, and ready to go out of the box (which the UFs and Fine stones are not these days). BlogClassNation is not going to peddle anything to beginners that is anything but absolutely point and shoot - regardless of whether it will be the preferred method in the long run. Thus all of the purchased saw jigs and expensive pre-made chute boards and other such stuff that should be quick-cheap-made stuff in a user's shop.

Presume that the guy who makes spyderco go has also found that those plastic handled knives are easier to sell and higher margin than getting and selling private label stones from coors ceramics.

[george wilson]

When I got mine,the ultra fine one was not available. To tell the truth, I am not sure if there is any difference between my white one now that it is flattened,or perhaps the ultra fine is just already flattened,at extra cost. I have not ever had to "re tooth" my white stone. It has been used since the 80's,and still cuts,leaving a highly polished razor edge. I just stack them on a shelf out of the way when finished. No water tub for growing your own mildew in.

I dare say,I think you could use these ceramic stones several lifetimes,and not see perceptible wear in them.

The main thing in getting into using them is getting the white one flat. If the Ultra Fine one is already flat,I'd recommend going for it.

As far as fast cutting,the diamond is a very fast cutting stone. Unless David(who has a lot of waterstone experience) says his will cut faster,I think the diamond will cut as fast as you'll ever need. Then,the black,and last,the white stones make quick work of polishing the edge.

This setup,possibly bar the diamond stone,is a once in a lifetime purchase expense. Unless you drop a ceramic stone and break it,it isn't going to ever need replacement.

These things have already been discussed before,but there might be newish members who haven't seen it.

[Adam Cruea]

1) I just simply didn't know enough about them for one
2) I use a honing guide; 2" wide just wasn't enough, so I never extensively looked into them (which led to reason #1)

I may check them out when I wear through my Sigma Power stones. Of course, there may be something much better by then. . .who knows?

[george wilson]

I just Googled Spyderco ceramic stones on Amazon. There seem to be an endless variety now. And,several 3" wide.Most of them cheaper than what I paid for mine years ago,before the internet.

[David Weaver]

There will always be something new and better

The battle with stones now is how to make them exactly the right hardness to have a hard and smooth feel, but so that they release enough particles not to load.

And the issue that people sharpening different things use different pressures. Razors use light pressure and polish on stones that still cut knives, etc.

The current menu of stuff that's available is pretty fantastic (shaptons, sigma powers, choseras, gokumyos).

[David Weaver]

When I got mine,the ultra fine one was not available. To tell the truth, I am not sure if there is any difference between my white one now that it is flattened,or perhaps the ultra fine is just already flattened,at extra cost. I have not ever had to "re tooth" my white stone. It has been used since the 80's,and still cuts,leaving a highly polished razor edge. I just stack them on a shelf out of the way when finished. No water tub for growing your own mildew in.

I dare say,I think you could use these ceramic stones several lifetimes,and not see perceptible wear in them.

The main thing in getting into using them is getting the white one flat. If the Ultra Fine one is already flat,I'd recommend going for it.

As far as fast cutting,the diamond is a very fast cutting stone. Unless David(who has a lot of waterstone experience) says his will cut faster,I think the diamond will cut as fast as you'll ever need. Then,the black,and last,the white stones make quick work of polishing the edge.

This setup,possibly bar the diamond stone,is a once in a lifetime purchase expense. Unless you drop a ceramic stone and break it,it isn't going to ever need replacement.

These things have already been discussed before,but there might be newish members who haven't seen it.

Diamond will cut as fast as anyone will need. A shapton pro 1k will cut carbon steel faster, so will a bester 1200, for equivalent finish, and it will stay more consistent, but diamonds are fine. When the steel gets tougher, the diamonds sort of stay the same speed and just cut everything equally fast, dependent, it seems, more on hardness than composition. But they cut anything fast, no matter how hard it is. True HSS challenges stones that don't release particles.

With any kind of stone that anyone has, if they think it's too slow, they're working too much metal. I can use a washita settled in and a jasper (both of which cut very little) and like it more than using any of the synthetics. 5 years ago, I would've written the stones off as too slow - both of them - and the washita too coarse if it's scuffed.

UF and Fine, I've seen the same thing on the razor boards, that the UF just had a better surface treatment, but one would have to confirm that with spyderco (unless someone already has). If the fine is allowed to settle in, it would become extremely fine. I sent Chris G my spyderco UF completely broken in and glazed and I think he was probably confused about its usefulness, and maybe felt it wasn't OK to beat up the surface to speed up the cut. when they are new (iirc, the particle size is about 3 microns) they cut unbelievably fast, but that soon goes away and they settle in to what they're going to do long term.

[Jeff Ranck]

I saw a post from a spyderco person on a forum that said the uf had the same grit size (whatever that means) as the fine but had been polished in some way. See I'm already trying to do some reading to see if I can learn more.

[Winton Applegate]

Diamond will cut as fast as anyone will need

Except of coarse that weird guy Winton; he seems to think he needs his Shapton 120. His Duo Sharp Coarse / Extra coarse 220 just doesn't eat the bevels and backs like he would like it to. And we all know how much time he is willing to waste sharpening. It isn't like he is in a big hurry or anything.

But what does he know he is still using those old water stones. They are SOOOOooooo passé.

[David Weaver]

But what does he know he is still using those old water stones.

You are using Ara-to? Binsui? Water of Ayr? Escher? Coticule? Ragstone? Hindostan? llyn melynllyn?

Those kind of old sharpening stones?

Or something *really* old, like a kyoto mountain stone from before non-royalty was allowed to have them?

[Winton Applegate]

Those kind of old sharpening stones?

No . . . Shaptons as in Shaptons OK last week but Shaptons so old fashioned and out of step this week. What happened ? I used to be so hip. I was so hip I had trouble seeing over my pelvis.
Now . . .
. . . I'm just that old guy at the bus stop with the bell bottoms.

. . . sigh.

[bridger berdel]

You are using Ara-to? Binsui? Water of Ayr? Escher? Coticule? Ragstone? Hindostan? llyn melynllyn?

Those kind of old sharpening stones?

Or something *really* old, like a kyoto mountain stone from before non-royalty was allowed to have them?

Belgian blue. I now have three of them (one being on the back of a coticule). Yes they are soft, but they behave like a no soak waterstone. Fast cutting and very fine. A spritz of alcohol and go.

[David Weaver]

Belgian blue. I now have three of them (one being on the back of a coticule). Yes they are soft, but they behave like a no soak waterstone. Fast cutting and very fine. A spritz of alcohol and go.

I have three on the backs of coticules. I never spent the time with coticules that I should have, mostly because they excel at a gentle edge, but not necessarily fast for their level of keenness.

I can't remember if you shave or not, but they are my go to when I have a razor that wants to chip on everything else, and they are one of the tougher stones to really get keenness out of with a razor - they are completely unlike anything else.