How to read grain direction?

[David Weaver]

Learning how to set the chipbreaker was a quantum leap in how they perform.

that pretty much solved every issue I thought I had with them (chatter, tearout, iron that doesn't stay sharp long enough). The whole design in general, the bailey design, is so genius. I don't know if he borrowed from other designs, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of the actual tool, the originality, functionality and overall design is absolutely genius.

Realizing that standing around adjusting a plane to take a light cut when I should be taking a heavier cut solved the rest. That's one thing wooden planes helped me solve. It's not quite so easy on a long wooden plane to make a fine depth adjustment, and when you get down to it, you realize that often when you're trying to do that, you're being too fine which isn't very good for productivity.

[george wilson]

I really enjoy adjusting my wooden planes. After many years of daily use,you get to where it can be done quickly,with a few well placed taps.

[Pat Barry]

The Bailey plane is a brilliant design. It has its limitations, but the more I learn about them, the more I like. The light weight, the thin blade, the adjuster, the curved chipbreaker ... I must confess that the Bailey is easier to use. It's one of the most succesfull planedesigns ever made.
The adjuster has backlash but it works perfectly allright.

BTW, I am not a mechanic, it's much worse, I am an electrical engineer

Electrical engineer? Hmmph. What in the world can you know about mechanics as an electrical engineer - stick to your electrons. LOL JK Kees, I too am a EE.

None the less, I think we need to clarify what you mean by "it works perfectly allright". Yes, when you turn the knob, in the direction it was last turned, then, yes, it might in fact move the blade as you intended. But then, when your shaving turns out to be .001" and you really intended for it to be .010" (sorry David, I'm not always going for .001" shavings), then twirl away at the knob a bit until you engage the blade to actually move, but be sure to overshoot your target so you can spin the knob back a bit to take the backlash back out again and then creep up on your desire result. Take a shaving or two, turn the knob a bit, you'll get there soon enough. So yes, it does the job. Thank god our steering systems in cars don't operate like that. Can you imagine the carnage on the hiway system if the steering in a car was that loose? No, those cars would have been outlawed long ago in favor of the cars with rack and pinion power assisted steering. By the way, who came up with that anyway, some craftsman?

[David Weaver]

Electrical engineer? Hmmph. What in the world can you know about mechanics as an electrical engineer - stick to your electrons. LOL JK Kees, I too am a EE.

None the less, I think we need to clarify what you mean by "it works perfectly allright". Yes, when you turn the knob, in the direction it was last turned, then, yes, it might in fact move the blade as you intended. But then, when your shaving turns out to be .001" and you really intended for it to be .010" (sorry David, I'm not always going for .001" shavings), then twirl away at the knob a bit until you engage the blade to actually move, but be sure to overshoot your target so you can spin the knob back a bit to take the backlash back out again and then creep up on your desire result. Take a shaving or two, turn the knob a bit, you'll get there soon enough. So yes, it does the job. Thank god our steering systems in cars don't operate like that. Can you imagine the carnage on the hiway system if the steering in a car was that loose? No, those cars would have been outlawed long ago in favor of the cars with rack and pinion power assisted steering. By the way, who came up with that anyway, some craftsman?

Steering systems and planes are not similar issues. The idea that you're going for a .001" shaving and you get a .01" shaving never actually happens. The only practical difference I can see in the fineness of the premium plane adjusters is when you're fiddling around trying to get a half thousandth shaving. I seem to recall the backlash in my bailey smoother (probably the bailey plane I use the most) being one tug of the finger, but as a practical matter even that only occurs sometimes, and often not while I'm finish planing something. By that, I mean that half the time you're adjusting in the direction you already have tension, and if you adjust more there isn't any backlash at all. That's a typical situation as a plane iron wears. If you're adjusting much in general, you're wasting time - it occurs mostly when you're installing a freshly sharpened iron and then practically every plane adjusts at the same speed at that point.

I can imagine that if someone put an indicator on a plane with an estimate of thousandths of an inch after setting zero on a plane, there are lots of engineers and doctors and all kinds of professionals not very proficient with hand planes who would buy it and boast they'd never have to guess again. And then there would be a blog entry about whether or not the indicator was accurate enough.

The problem is lack of experience working in context and at a good pace, Pat, not a shortcoming in the tools you're criticizing.

[george wilson]

Maybe just forget about it,and adjust the Stanley plane with a brass hammer!!

[Kees Heiden]

My 1960 Volvo Duett has a lot of backlash in the steering. It's systematic, not poor maintanance. Still I've been all over Europe with that car, done quite a few of high mountain passes in the Alps.

When setting the depth I first give the adjuster a flick with my thumb to take up the slop. Then slowly advance the knob, often while pushing the plane along the board. You can set the shaving thickness very precisely that way. Look how the shaving gets through the mouth and adjust the lateral at the same time. Usually I don't measure my shavings. But when I did a bit of research last winter I set it in 0.01 to 0.02 mm increments. Being able to adjust it on the fly is a nice feature too.


My wooden planes take skill too. Each one is a bit different under the hammer. When I don't use a plane for a while I have to relearn, but it comes easilly enough.

So, things could certainly be better. But it doesn't distract too much from the ability to use the plane. It's at best mildly irritating.

[Jim Koepke]

...
None the less, I think we need to clarify what you mean by "it works perfectly allright". Yes, when you turn the knob, in the direction it was last turned, then, yes, it might in fact move the blade as you intended. But then, when your shaving turns out to be .001" and you really intended for it to be .010" (sorry David, I'm not always going for .001" shavings), then twirl away at the knob a bit until you engage the blade to actually move, but be sure to overshoot your target so you can spin the knob back a bit to take the backlash back out again and then creep up on your desire result. Take a shaving or two, turn the knob a bit, you'll get there soon enough. So yes, it does the job. Thank god our steering systems in cars don't operate like that. Can you imagine the carnage on the hiway system if the steering in a car was that loose? No, those cars would have been outlawed long ago in favor of the cars with rack and pinion power assisted steering. By the way, who came up with that anyway, some craftsman?

My understanding is the adjuster should be under tension when planing.

Once you have your thickness of cut set do you remove tension from the depth adjuster?

If my plane is set for a fine shaving and a thicker shaving is wanted there isn't any 'twirling' involved. Usually just a little movement of the depth adjuster brings me to the desired shaving thickness.

It may be many former owners of our planes set the lever cap too tight. This would be one sure cause of wear on the depth adjuster's threads and lands against the adjuster yoke.

jtk

[george wilson]

Yes,I think the adjuster should be under tension when planing. If not,if the lever cap is not REASONABLY snug,I'd think the iron might back up under pressure from the cut.

I wonder how may people have excessive trouble adjusting because they have their lever caps set too tight. Yes,backlash will be there,but the iron would be easier to slide if not grasped too tightly. I advise a little experimentation along those lines. Perhaps wax on the incline,and wax under the lever cap,or on the blade would help to get things sliding better.

In machine tools,there is a problem called "slip-stick". It is when heavy milling machine tables are too heavy for the lead screw to nudge a very small amount. Say a thousandth or two. Finally,pressure builds up and the table jumps a bit. Makes it harder to do close tolerance work. I think planes could be that way also,from dryness of their sliding surfaces making undue friction.

I ought to look at my old Stanley and see what would be involved in tightening up the tolerances of the screw and the adjusting lever. Perhaps it might be possible to at least snug up the lever with simple wood shop tools.

If I was bothered to death,I'd just make better parts,but that isn't an option for most. I'm just not interested enough to get into it.


As for Norris,it's a wonder the older ones aren't all broken. They have a screw that is threaded through a machined nut. The nut on mine can be squeezed shut a bit more by 2 screws and a slit in it.

The older ones have a 2nd. very slender screw that is threaded inside the larger screw. This inner screw is quite delicate. It has a ring on its end that goes around the head of the chip breaker screw. The curious thing it,the crazy way the inner screw works,it just DOUBLES the distance that ring travels when the larger screw is turned. You'd think the silly thing would HALVE the distance the ring travels. That would make sense. The net result is a very thin,delicate inner screw that would bend very easily. And,it does NOTHING except make the adjustment knob COARSER. Why?

On my late model Norris,they did away with the little inner screw,and just left the finely threaded larger screw. A much stronger system with FINER adjustment when the knob is turned.

I still would not say the Norris system is particularly durable. Certainly less durable than the Bailey system. I haven't used my Norris for some time. But,I'm certain it is not backlash free either. There is bound to be slack in how the screw is attached to the ring,and how well the ring fits the cap iron screw. I don't think my Norris was ever used. It still has the factory bevel on the blade. I'll have to look at it,and see how much play there is.

[Jim Koepke]

Yes,I think the adjuster should be under tension when planing. If not,if the lever cap is not REASONABLY snug,I'd think the iron might back up under pressure from the cut.

I wonder how may people have excessive trouble adjusting because they have their lever caps set too tight. Yes,backlash will be there,but the iron would be easier to slide if not grasped too tightly. I advise a little experimentation along those lines.

...

My lever caps are usually set by feel. This is usually in relation to how much effort is needed to move the lateral adjuster. A 1/16th turn of the lever cap screw can have a lot of effect on the other components of adjustment. If the depth adjuster is backed off a bit the blade should hold its setting for at least a few passes. If it is too loose your lateral adjustment may keep changing.

jtk

[george wilson]

Yes,once again my old addage of using DISCRETION holds true. It is the difference between being a good craftsman and a poor one. It is certainly an important component of successfully using tools.

[Pat Barry]

Yes,I think the adjuster should be under tension when planing. If not,if the lever cap is not REASONABLY snug,I'd think the iron might back up under pressure from the cut.

I wonder how may people have excessive trouble adjusting because they have their lever caps set too tight. Yes,backlash will be there,but the iron would be easier to slide if not grasped too tightly. I advise a little experimentation along those lines. Perhaps wax on the incline,and wax under the lever cap,or on the blade would help to get things sliding better.
.

Finally someone willing to be objective and offer a potential solution rather than reverting to the muck dragging and belittling of an entire group of people (engineers lets say) as if they were too unfamiliar with the basic pretense of the adjustment screw or too dense to know better, as is espoused by at least one other here. Thanks George.

And Yes, Jim, I completely understand the idea of tension on the blade thus my point that you need to back out the blade first and then bring it back to position desired. Iagree wholeheartedly with this comment.

And Kees, your systemic steering problem on the old Volvo may have gotten you where you were intending to go but I bet you sure had some white knuckle moments at higher speeds, windy conditions, passing semi-trucks and the like.

[george wilson]

Many times I served as a "seat of the pants" engineer for the museum. Got everything done successfully.

[david charlesworth]

I find that I am using less tension on the Bailey lever cap than I used to. The lateral and shaving thickness knob adjustments do not want to be uncomfortably tight.

Surely backlash ceases to be an issue once one understands it? Almost all mechanical systems have some. The idea that expensive planes will have none is ludicrous, just less). My Myford precision metal lathe slides have some. A micrometer may have the least.

To set a shaving, I start with the blade retracted and wind it out till the desired thickness is reached. A scrapwood edge is very good for this. Winding while moving, as Kees says, works well.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

PS fettling a poorly made tool and getting it to work well, is a most satisfying and rewarding passtime!

[george wilson]

You are agreeing with what I have said,David. It is necessary to think about little details,like how tight that lever cap really is,and does it slide easily,when coaxing the most out of any machine or mechanical device. Especially a bandsaw. You can make them do the most marvelous work if you know how to coax them along.

[david charlesworth]

Yes.

I know that you know what you are talking about !

David